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Post by moosishun on Apr 23, 2020 5:57:09 GMT -5
DAY 4:
Todays question is about the 3 friendships (Seth, Libby and Toby) and Rachel since she was the first to break into that circle.
Why did these relationships stick and why have your long-term relationships stuck?
How did each of these characters deal with obstacles in their marriages/relationships and occupations?
Which of the four did you dislike/like the most and why?
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Post by lilybbb on Apr 23, 2020 8:52:11 GMT -5
Interesting question!
I think the main reason the friendships stuck was because they met on the trip to Israel. Almost all of my Jewish friends joined BBYO when we were in middle/high school, and their chapter affiliations really influenced their friendships and relationships. There's also a great episode of This American Life about Summer Camp and how camp friends are so special.
Also worth mentioning--their friendships didn't really "last" that long--IIRC, it had been years since Libby & Toby had gotten together when he reached out to her during divorce. I do think we have a tendency to reach back in times of upheaval.
I had a friend in high school, went to her wedding just after college, then didn't see her until we reconnected on FB fifteen years later. She kept talking about how we'd been friends for over 20 years, etc. And I was like, actually we were friends for about two years, then I saw you 2-3 times during college, and now we've reconnected. It took me about a year to realize she's a pretty terrible person who lies and cheats.
I think there's a lot to be said here that ties in with the theme of perspective and revelation and the choice of the narrator. Even how well do we really know each other? I'm often most disappointed by people who I assume to be the most connected to me or who I expect to "understand" me. We put a lot on those people.
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Post by roundtoit on Apr 23, 2020 10:57:35 GMT -5
Seth was known to be the one not to settle down. Only recently did he have a relationship of note but she was about 15 years younger. He had an acceptable job, which he lost and didn't tell her. I think he was starting to panic with his job loss and proposed to feel he had some stability. Will it last? IDK. Weren't they fighting during the engagement party because he was smoking pot?
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Post by bernelli on Apr 23, 2020 11:27:15 GMT -5
I think the friendships from our youth sometimes stick around because of the intense emotional links we created back then, and as adults we feel good about those connections. I only have 1 friend from when I was young that we make extra effort to get together whenever I "go home". Our lives went such completely different paths after high school, but I loved her then and love to get together with her now. We catch up and laugh about things we did when we were so young. We are very different people now though. I think Libby/Toby/Seth are the same way.... and Libby's explanation also brought elements that I think probably helped keep them semi-connected.
I didn't really feel anything for any of them though. I felt like I was on the outside watching things unfold and didn't feel much to any of the characters. It was more like I was watching things unfold from a distance.
I did wonder if Libby's attraction to Toby kept her involved in the threesome. At the end of the story when it seemed her loyalties turned more toward her husband and her longing for "what if" was appeased with Toby, I wondered if she'd disconnect from Toby & Seth and feel more the way Libby described her friendship.
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Post by moosishun on Apr 23, 2020 11:36:57 GMT -5
I think there is this "golden age" where you reach back nostalgically to situations where you were thrown together and bonded because of the similar struggles that each of you went through together. Young adulthood is such an important passage. And when you have lived pretty close together with a similar agenda, I find that is not so hard to re-connect.
I moved to another state every year of high school, but when we got here to Maryland, I stayed. I have two good friends from high school, and my cousin and sister that have remained with me all my life, all whom I just adore. We may not speak that often, but we do speak pretty regularly and it seems like we pick up where we left off. We share a commonality - my two friends of mine from HS were in the Madrigals group I was in and my sister and my cousin have family ties.
I think the connection between Toby, Seth and Libby is that year away from home and also their commonality in their Jewishness. There are certain things they just have in common, even though they all 3 struck out in different directions. It is interesting to me that they stayed in touch.
I was more attuned to Seth and Toby's early upbringing and Libby's was not all that clear. Now why is that?
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Post by lilybbb on Apr 23, 2020 18:50:45 GMT -5
I did wonder if Libby's attraction to Toby kept her involved in the threesome. At the end of the story when it seemed her loyalties turned more toward her husband and her longing for "what if" was appeased with Toby, I wondered if she'd disconnect from Toby & Seth and feel more the way Libby described her friendship. I didn't pick up on that at all (attraction to Toby.) I think she was just attracted to rekindling a friendship when she's gotten into the routine (some would say rut) of her own life. She may like to be a bit needed--enjoys being a shoulder--and also she definitely shows how she likes just going out in the city, etc. It's something different. I've had a few friends who reconnected with me and have kind of used me as an excuse to party. Sadly, I don't think my actual life meets their expectations of Livin the Vida Loca. Libby seems to realize that after connecting with Rachel, as well--I agree with you about her being satisfied with her husband then.
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Post by moosishun on Apr 24, 2020 6:37:28 GMT -5
Last Day for this discussion, although I have this page bookmarked and will welcome other comments! If you come into this discussion after today, don't use the tiny comment section! Ha! Just bleat it out in a regular post!
You can add your own questions today if I haven't gotten into a subject with you. I think there are a myriad of things to talk about in this book and I am sure I did not hit all of them!
How about the theme of looking in one's past childhood to help further know the character in adulthood? Any character in this book that really made sense to you when following that path? Why?
How do you think these characters end up?
How do you think the kids grow up? What baggage do you think they take with them (or positive forces)?
Thanks for a great week of discussion!
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Post by moosishun on Apr 24, 2020 8:11:07 GMT -5
And this is the reason I liked this book - so many paths to ponder.
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Post by bumblebuzz21 on Apr 24, 2020 8:52:27 GMT -5
I've decided I have Wilson's disease. My clumsiness is out of control. No copper ring in my iris though.
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Post by roundtoit on Apr 24, 2020 9:04:32 GMT -5
I'm so glad there was a discussion of this book. I don't think I would have read it otherwise. Taffy has some brilliantly written passages and there are so many layers that until you take the time to reflect, you may not consider them that well. I'm not sure I love the book, but I don't dislike it. When reflecting, it made me think and I really like books that make me do that. So many thoughts... Gender sterotypes exist to today in medical care--physical and mental-- for women, how we are treated in the business world (Would a man have had to work as hard as Rachel??), and even how children are treated. Thinking about Hannah had to leave camp yet the boy who distributed her picture remained. There's also the question if she can be "reigned in" with her approval-seeking behavior and become a more self-confident young woman who doesn't chase after those peers that also make her feel bad about herself. Distribution of wealth whereas Rachel and Toby were quite comfortable but she was reaching higher and seeking approval even to have an affair she thought would be with someone understanding but he just wanted her availability. Do we outgrow the need to have the approval of a social circle? I don't think any of these characters were self-actualized people and okay in their own roles, but maybe Libby was further along the way than the others. I have a friend who is big on emotional IQ and none of these would have scored high on that measure. Thank you moosishun, for leading this week's discussion.
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Post by bernelli on Apr 24, 2020 9:33:43 GMT -5
Thank you Moosi for leading a great conversation - your questions were as vast & wide as the ideas in the book. I did not like this story because I didn't like the characters. I did like the hard look at society and especially the questions about self acceptance, and so I'm glad for the discussion so I could read about other's takeaways from this story. Sometimes the discussions make me change my mind about how much I liked a book. Not this time, but my appreciation of the ideas in the story is separate from my "enjoyment rating". To roundtoit's comment about emotional IQ -- I agree 100% that none of these characters had much of that. Once again, another very enjoyable conversation about a book!
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Post by lilybbb on Apr 24, 2020 12:40:24 GMT -5
moosishun brought up several times in the discussion the idea that we might judge the characters differently if their genders were reversed, and the camp incident with Toby's daughter basically tied all of those thoughts together and threw them in our faces, IMO. While I was reading the book, I got a lot of the gender role nuance, and when I came across that scene, I was like, okay nuance over! Sadly, the double standard in consequences was not at all surprising to me. Also, though, Toby fired Mona over Solly watching porn... but did Solly get an equivalent consequence?!?!
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Post by gemster on Apr 24, 2020 16:34:38 GMT -5
Thank you for leading us moosishun, sorry I didn’t join in much towards the end but I’d skimmed this so much a lot of it went over my head but I couldn’t bring myself to re-read. Unfortunately I can see both of those kids being damaged by their parents, and agree with what’s been said about low emotional IQ. I do hope my little mate Solly turns out ok in the end though - and doesn’t develop a porn habit!
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Post by moosishun on Apr 25, 2020 5:52:05 GMT -5
Gosh, I got so busy yesterday I didn't opine on my own question!
I find it very interesting that the only person's childhood we don't really have a clue about is Libby's, just that she is Jewish. How's them taters? Seth and Toby are birds of two different feathers - Seth did all he could to run away from his childhood family experiences (orthodox home) and Toby was positively influenced by his - by the career he chose and by attending services regularly. It is evident by the fact that Toby, Libby and Seth's families sent their young adult children to Israel for a year that their faith and traditions were obviously very important to them.
Rachel, on the other hand, was not loved but was taken care of. Can you imagine having to make your way without a family to support you, even if the family says "Now look here, junior, if you would just be like us you wouldn't be in such a mess"? The one person that loved you died when you were 3? The grandmother did her duty but didn't like it? I cannot imagine this. I came from a family who fiercely loved their children and even though I have moved beyond their ultra-conservative Christianity, they were such a force in my life that I was definitely there for them when they got sick.
None of these people had any of those kind of ties to their parents in which they needed to take them in or by the power-of-attorney over their care! Amazing to me that their 40's are spent still figuring themselves out without that added responsibility!!! I guess I am in the minority!
One thing I loved about Seth was that he was interested in getting together people for parties, and also having all kinds of experts expound upon all kinds of subjects, even though of course it would end up with drunk people making new sexual connections! Ha! No wonder Rachel hated it. However, an interesting point was that Seth had different groups of people meet together depending upon the subject except for Toby and Libby! These two were his family and even though he didn't tell them everything about himself, he told them more than he told his girlfriends. For the record, I don't know what I think happens to him, because it could go either way as far as this fiancee goes. It depends upon how much she is willing to gloss over.
I think Libby turns into a well-known writer and gives interviews on her own terms and goes the author circuit and her husband stays as solid as ever. I think she becomes a better wife. I think Toby and Rachel have an equal chance of either making it or not but if they do, they finally go to a counselor they listen to, because they are finding out that their perceptions are not working.
I also find it very interesting how Rachel and Toby take their disappointments in their careers. Rachel pulls herself out of this mental breakdown and firmly believes that she is going to get Alejandro back, and Toby has no plans one way or the other, just is whiny about the fact that he didn't get the promotion. If he doesn't pick up on some of Rachel's gumption, he will be a worse person for it.
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Post by ccToast on Apr 25, 2020 15:20:49 GMT -5
What an incredible discussion, and I am so sorry that I missed it in real time. As always, reading the posts here have broadened my understanding of the characters and the story.
I am solidly in the "like" column! Like many other posters, I had trouble getting into the flow, but the LOL moments early in the book convinced me to keep going. That and this book club discussion.
Of course the first-person narration surprised me, and truthfully there were a couple of times when I would pick the book back up and have forgotten that Libby was the narrator, so I discovered it all over again. Duh! Although I was confused initially, especially before I knew much about Libby, I think in the end it's one of my favorite parts of the book. Having Libby's biased telling of Toby's story in which Rachel is a complete bitch who is largely responsible for Toby's woes (especially the career-related ones) and then getting the other side of the story that Rachel tells Libby was an incredible way of getting a balanced view of these two characters by the end of the book. Neither character is all good nor all bad and neither is completely responsible for the marriage problems.
I felt a real aha moment when Ms. Cooper's BFF revealed that Mr. Cooper's character was not what it appeared. It wasn't until then that I first started to think that maybe Toby was not faultless in his marriage's problems.
I loved the gender role reversal regarding the top breadwinner as a way to highlight societal expectations--the Mommy wars, the way that women can't win regardless of whether their lives are weighted toward career, family or more evenly balanced.
The author had some terrific lines. One of my favorites was at the end of the scene where Toby thinks that Joanie is making a play for him: "Her skin was so flush and thick. Her youth was so staggering it was offensive." As a middle aged person myself, I strongly connect with this feeling, but I never realized it until reading it phrased in this way.
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Post by ccToast on Apr 25, 2020 15:25:51 GMT -5
Regarding the connection between the author and Libby: just before Libby gets in the cab to return home at the end of the book she thinks I smiled when I read this because I imagined that this was the author herself describing the book I had just read. moosishun, Thank you so much for leading this discussion. I benefited so much from these perspectives even if I was a little late to the game.
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Post by dedopossum on May 3, 2020 10:27:05 GMT -5
Very late to the conversation! I just finished the book, and I'm really glad I read it. I wouldn't have without this bookclub.
I started out not liking the book, but when the narrator was revealed it took a turn (although it REALLY CONFUSED ME at first.) I ended up really enjoying the book. Especially since I am big about gender equality.
I'm not sure how I feel about the ending- it was a delicious surprise for me but a little trite at the same time.
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Post by peacemama on May 21, 2020 20:05:27 GMT -5
Finally finished last week and caught up on your posts/comments. Great discussion.
Random thoughts:
I've been pondering the cover art, along with the title. A world flipped upside down. Which Fleishman is in trouble? I assumed Toby at the start, but later realized it was probably referring to Rachel -- since it was mentioned that Toby loved that she'd taken his last name.
I thought for sure there would be a murder mystery twist. It was the hook that kept me going until the reveal.
Toby adopted a one-eyed dachshund! All of his flaws are forgiven in my mind.
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Post by bumblebuzz21 on Oct 27, 2022 10:39:28 GMT -5
Looks like this has been turned in to a TV show on Hulu. Might have to re-read this thread to remind me what this book was about.
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