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Post by gemster on Feb 2, 2021 13:46:51 GMT -5
I loved all the things turning up again and again and how they tied the characters and their stories together. I think ‘things’ are important in an historical sense, I’ve got some stuff of my Dad’s from when he fought in WW2 I kind of think of them as living history.
I also think it’s important to remember, teach and learn from history. I also think for the young people in the book it would be very disconcerting not to know anything about Before Times, I don’t know how they’d understand the world they lived in without learning about the past.
I’m a history buff though (like most of us here to a certain extent) I can’t imagine not knowing about WW2 or the Cold War etc but I’m sure there’s plenty of younger people who likely don’t give it a second thought.
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Post by honeybzzzs on Feb 2, 2021 23:32:15 GMT -5
Even in my short life time, I see that children aren’t taught about the past, or at least don’t take it for how serious is was/is. History does get whitewashed, and with that we are doomed to repeat ourselves.
A few examples. About 18 months ago, one of the ‘young ones’ on another board I frequent made a comment about a picture she had seen. It was a non-combative picture of one police officer talking to a young woman. The person on the board made a comment of “Is this how riots were in the 1960’s? “ I informed her of how riots were, as she really was unaware. She didn’t know about the beatings, the fire hoses, the dogs, etc etc. She didn’t see 1960 the way I had....on the evening news—in our living room—each night.
A few months after her comment, George Floyd was murdered. She now knows, “what riots look like”
I had a college educated employee. Somehow the subject of the monk that set himself on fire, during the Vietnam era, came up. She didn’t think it really happened that way. I assured her it did. I saw it happen, on that evening news. That image will never leave my mind.
I know young people that don’t have a clue who Mao Zedong was, or know anything about the Cultural Revolution. And here we go again—with Xi Jinping. I just picked up a new book at the library today. We Have Been Harmonized : Life in China’s Surveillance State by Kai Strittmatter.
We need to never forget our past.
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Post by bumblebuzz21 on Feb 3, 2021 8:19:49 GMT -5
Day III
Throughout the novel, those who were alive during the time before the flu remember specific things about those days: the ease of electricity, the taste of an orange. In their place, what do you think you’d remember most?
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Post by bumblebuzz21 on Feb 3, 2021 8:22:42 GMT -5
I think it's kind of hard to answer this question without actually being in that situation. Kirsten did mention losing two teeth and I think toothpaste, dental floss and dental care is the thing I would miss the most. Honestly, IMO, a toothache is absolutely the worst and I already have pretty crappy teeth to begin with. Plus, I imagine that if you were in Florida or California, there would still be all kinds of citrus. I'm in Indiana so I think I would miss bananas a lot too.
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Post by bernelli on Feb 3, 2021 9:05:58 GMT -5
Flushing toilets, and the convenience of modern bathrooms would be something I'd miss a TON. I think I was someone in a previous life who had to live without those things because I have the weirdest strong appreciation for them today. LOL
The fundamental things that make life comfortable would be missed... like toothpaste, floss and things like that that Bumble mentioned. I'd also miss being able to wash my hair, put on deodorant and feel clean. Maybe I'd adjust to a different level of grime and stink?
I'd miss lights and electricity, heat and a/c.
I'd miss music so much.
And eating food that I don't have to hunt down and kill, then clean then cook. Or grow. Cooking would be such an enormous task.
...but... I'm pretty sure if I survived a virus I'd just fall over dead from the struggle of that type of living so the discomfort would not last long.
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Post by peacemama on Feb 3, 2021 9:50:52 GMT -5
I'd miss the ease of staying connected... to loved ones via FaceTime/phone and all the info/news found online.
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suby
This space for rent
Posts: 10,376
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Post by suby on Feb 3, 2021 10:10:18 GMT -5
I think I'd most miss feeling reasonably safe. They couldn't even sleep without worrying about being killed for their limited resources.
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Post by moosishun on Feb 3, 2021 10:13:47 GMT -5
I would definitely miss the opportunity to be a slug - I would have to spend my life old-schooling all kinds of things. Learn how to make fires, wash clothes, plant gardens, make clothes and shoes, figure out how to dispose waste, not be able to look up answers on the internet. I live with a survivalist who also has quite the engineering mind, so we would give it a good shot if the virus didn't sneak in and take us down.
Here is a thing, though - people who can invent things and have real build-it skills seemed to have been in short supply in this particular look-at-life-after-the-apocalypse. I think some communities would have figured out a lot of things before 20 years were up - kind of like seeing the settlement a few miles away having electricity. Somebody would remember how to do that and get it done. Perhaps the attrition of so many people forced the survivors to band together in settlements and that kind of movement would take time to get going and then you have your crazy prophets, mean people with guns, power-hungry jerks to contend with.
It's a wonder any of those settlements survived. Not everybody is as nice as Clark or the conductor or Jeevan.
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Post by honeybzzzs on Feb 3, 2021 11:22:57 GMT -5
I’d remember the ease of obtaining and preparing food. Also the ease of preserving food.
Having no electric, and cooking everything on a wood fire/stove would definitely have me remembering “how we used to put food in a box, turn a knob or press a button, and your food would just cook.” And same with preserving. Just toss it in the frozen box and pull it out a year later. No salting, drying, pickling involved.
While I can sew, I would remember when you could just “go to the store” and get what you needed. Especially when it came to hard-to-produce items like shoes.
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Post by gemster on Feb 3, 2021 15:09:55 GMT -5
I’d just miss the easiness of life in general and all my home comfort and mod cons as I’m not at all outdoorsy and absolutely hate camping, going to the toilet outside etc. The lack of alone time and privacy would he a big deal for me too but I really don’t think I’d have lasted long in the post flu world. If the flu hadn’t got me I reckon something/someone else would have seen me off fairly quickly, especially as I have bad knees and can’t run I’d be fine with that, as mentioned unthread I’ve never had any desire to survive in a post nuclear or post apocalyptic world, I’d much rather go out in the first round hopefully not suffering or even really knowing what was happening.
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Post by roundtoit on Feb 3, 2021 15:35:22 GMT -5
Yes, all the things that become a chore instead of "easy living". Air conditioning--I know I could get used to it, I guess. My house had no A/C for about three years before I put it in. I did have an attic fan, though, that helped a lot. But I would miss that so much. And along with A/C goes refrigeration--not being able to keep foods for a bit before they spoil. Life would be so hard.
We've had a few storms that knock out the power for a week or so at a time. I always told my kids we'd practice being pioneers. But I had camping equipment and really warm sleeping bags, so it was more of an adventure until people started getting their power back. I cannot imagine living for 20 years without it.
I, too, was surprised more areas hadn't figured some things out after 20 years. I guess many were too busy trying to survive to be creative but I find lack produces creativity.
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Post by ccToast on Feb 3, 2021 19:27:14 GMT -5
I do not think that I could have survived very long if I didn't die from the Georgia Flu. Perhaps I could figure out how to grow some food and maybe catch fish, but I've never been very good with either of those during the good times. I don't know that I would be able to protect myself from bad people, animals, etc.
Like you have all mentioned I would miss luxuries like AC/heat, easy food sources, and soap. If things were to change quickly, as they did in the book, I would miss easy communication to find out about my family members who live far away. I think that would be the worst--worrying and not knowing.
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Post by ccToast on Feb 3, 2021 19:46:43 GMT -5
I loved how the people and the objects tied together the way they did. I too loved the connection of the objects and people. The graphic novel and the paperweight were like bread crumbs through the story. Everyone was so disconnected by the disruption in communication and travel, yet the characters were connected in ways that they didn't even realize. After Kirsten realized that the Prophet also knew Station Eleven, she was able to see him as a person, as someone her age, who had also endured tragedy. He wasn't just an evil villain, and she could see his humanity. Do you think that Jeevan knew his connection to Kirsten and Clark?
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Post by bumblebuzz21 on Feb 4, 2021 8:19:23 GMT -5
Day 4 On to Shakespeare:
Arthur Leander dies while performing King Lear, and the Traveling Symphony performs Shakespeare’s works. On page 57, Mandel writes, “Shakespeare was the third born to his parents, but the first to survive infancy. Four of his siblings died young. His son, Hamnet, died at eleven and left behind a twin. Plague closed the theaters again and again, death flickering over the landscape.” How do Shakespearean motifs coincide with those of Station Eleven, both the novel and the comic?
Arthur remembers Miranda saying “I regret nothing,” and uses that to deepen his understanding of Lear, “a man who regrets everything,” as well as his own life. How do his regrets fit into the larger scope of the novel? Other than Miranda, are there other characters that refuse to regret?
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Post by bumblebuzz21 on Feb 4, 2021 8:20:44 GMT -5
I don't really know anything about Shakespeare or his plays. I'm pretty sure I learned in school, but I seem to have forgotten everything. I did just read Hamnet by Maggie O'Farrell so I know about his wife and kids. Anyways, that is really all I have to say about this.
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Post by bernelli on Feb 4, 2021 9:02:23 GMT -5
I didn't even recognize the parallels between the Shakespeare play, King Lear and Arthur. I stumbled on people's reviews/commentary while googling things while I was reading. I felt like I missed an entire thought process of the story...then I sat there wondering how disappointed authors are when their audience misses something they worked so hard to weave into their story.
I spent more time wondering about the author than the Shakespeare stuff... I feel unqualified on this topic!
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Post by moosishun on Feb 4, 2021 9:28:29 GMT -5
Me, three! I am so illiterate about Shakespeare. The language usage is just foreign to me and just reading it does not do it justice. I saw a play once but no one was dressed up and it was one of those very scaled-down affairs, but still, the way the actors spoke the lines did give things far more meaning.
My mother adored Shakespeare. She would have made a great English major in college but her family had zero $$ and there was no way she was going to college after high-school. Her grades were off the charts excellent and I am so sorry she did not get that opportunity.
I know a very tiny bit about King Lear and Hamlet is some kind of wacky insane mess. Perhaps Miranda saved herself from insanity by saying "I Regret Nothing." I found that she was such a strong individual who found herself while she was married to Arthur that it was worth the break-up to find herself. At the same time, she had to leave the island and part of that leaving was finding herself with that scumbag artist, but she did eventually end up leaving him for Arthur. I have a lot of regrets that I can beat myself up on, but the "I Regret Nothing" does pull me back to the reality that I am who I am today because of who I was in the past.
I loved Miranda. I am sorry she got caught up in the virus.
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Post by gemster on Feb 4, 2021 14:46:55 GMT -5
I don’t know enough about Shakespeare either, I suffered it at school and apart from a good production of Macbeth I saw fairly recently (set in modern times) have never really thought about it since. I’ve never read King Lear as we always seemed to do the comedies which personally I didn’t find the least bit funny so guess I’m a Shakespeare philistine I loved Miranda too and wish she’d survived and somehow linked in with some of the others. Her and Jeevan meeting up at some point in the post flu world would have been awesome.
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Post by ccToast on Feb 4, 2021 20:03:18 GMT -5
I also am not too familiar with King Lear, but with the Shakespearean tragedies I've read, many people die. I remember one teacher saying that the stage is littered with bodies by the end of the play, which is of course what happens with the Georgia flu.
The book starts with the tragedy of King Lear followed soon by the tragedy of the pandemic.
I was reading an interview with Emily St. John Mandel, and she said this
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Post by moosishun on Feb 5, 2021 7:38:53 GMT -5
So, I got really curious about this and since we still have the internets, I went ahead and googled and found this interesting stuff:
The two Shakespeare plays in this book were King Lear and A Midsummer's Night Dream. It is interesting that the London theaters were closed down for 2 years because of the Plague and A Midsummer's Night Dream was one of the first to be performed after the theaters were re-opened.
King Lear had three daughters that he expected complete love and devotion from and they were all killed in the play by someone else (which is why they were ghosts at the end). Arthur had 3 wives and one of the authors believes that Miranda represents the youngest daughter, who does not especially fawn over her father but says she loves him but doesn't go to the extremes the others do. Arthur has turned into a person that is very attracted to those that fawn all over him.
And of course, Arthur *is* King Lear, with all his regrets and watching his world come to a devastating end. The part where Arthur has to look out at the audience before the play begins is very foreboding, don't you think?
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Post by bumblebuzz21 on Feb 5, 2021 7:58:05 GMT -5
Last Day
Thanks for playing along!
1. “Survival is insufficient,” a line from Star Trek: Voyager, is the Traveling Symphony’s motto. What does it mean to them?
2. What do you imagine the Traveling Symphony will find when they reach the brightly lit town to the south?
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Post by bumblebuzz21 on Feb 5, 2021 8:01:28 GMT -5
I think the answer to the first question is obvious, survival just isn't enough. Especially after 20 years! You need to live, love, laugh (did I just quote a sign from Homegoods?).
I think that they will find a town that is going to change everything. I hope that they have a governing body that works and is fair and electricity so that they can start moving forward.
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Post by ccToast on Feb 5, 2021 8:38:17 GMT -5
1. As others have pointed out, the arts remain even in the new world where everyone is scrambling just to meet basic needs. Survival is not sufficient, and the arts are necessary for humanity. 2. I don't know what they'll find, but I'm so glad that this hopeful future is how the book ends. I can imagine that they find all of the good things in the lights on the horizon. bumblebuzz21, Thanks for leading the discussion this week!
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Post by bernelli on Feb 5, 2021 8:50:14 GMT -5
I like the theories so much so far!
When I was done reading, I thought about this and decided that it's not enough just to survive because you have to participate in the betterment of your society, you have to care about the future so much that you're willing to provide a positive impact (like the traveling theater, and like the newsletter man, and like the museum curator). I did wonder how this could align with that poor boy who knew right vs wrong and made the sacrifice to kill the "prophet" before he could kill more people-doing-good ... but the cost was too great. So... my theory stumbled a bit and I wondered what the author thought about it.
My assumption about the electricity-town was that they'd find innovators there and everyone would be a big happy family. ....but people are people and people like power and being "better than" and being in charge... so then I just quit thinking about it so I could end with my own big-happy-family thoughts.
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Post by bernelli on Feb 5, 2021 8:51:22 GMT -5
This has been one of my favorite reads/discussions so far -- and yet another book I would never have found without the suggestions we all throw in the mix. (do I say this every time?) Anyway -- thanks for leading the discussion bumblebuzz21 and thanks for such an excellent suggestion!
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