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Post by bernelli on Jun 23, 2021 8:59:59 GMT -5
I did think it was realistic for the times... I hadn't considered it might even be a bit toned down. I feel like it was realistic for when I grew up in the 70's.... except for the Indian (Native American) prejudice.... I think that dates back a bit (?) I could be wrong. I grew up in Colorado and the Indian culture was celebrated, and I *thought* respected... till I grew up and visited South Dakota, etc, and learned a lot more about the realities than what we were taught in school. I digress...
I'm glad for the progress, the acceptance and respect that has grown...we have a long way to go on that front.
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Post by mare on Jun 23, 2021 9:35:48 GMT -5
I really think that much of this would still be relevant. Maybe not accepted as loud public commentary but plenty of private conversations. I'm in the middle of reading "White Guys on Campus" and it is not a hopeful book about major changes in understanding and being committed to undoing racism.
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Post by moosishun on Jun 23, 2021 10:54:26 GMT -5
I think it was a fair realistic picture except there was SO MUCH OF IT in one family's experience - I can imagine confronting a lot looking back at my youth, but not condensed in one summer, which was why I began to grow weary of ALL OF IT.
My brother is probably further along the autism spectrum than me, and I don't remember one other soul in our community who had the challenges with a sibling that we did, and we were part of many communities because we moved quite a bit. And I do not remember one family that had a child with the type of autistic traits that Lise had, along with her deafness. I wonder if scientists will discover an environmental link to autism in the future.
I have never met a Jake in my life that had such a sweet way with differentness at such a young age. I have met plenty of Franks! Hahahahaha! I was probably at Jake's age in real time. People that were different from me would stick out because we were not part of a culturally diverse community. In fact, if it were not for the federally mandated desegregation of schools, I would have probably remained oblivious to people of color until I became an adult.
I think the ideas of racism against minority people groups was prevalent but insidious so that a white child like myself would not see it directly and in my face. Just the fact that there was definitely a "color line" as far as neighborhood make-up speaks to the attitude of "knowing your place". So many unspoken and invisible rules and regulations. Just to know that in the 1960's there were practically no people of color on mainstream TV is mind-boggling, isn't it? Give a people no place or no face and it is very easy to sweep ugliness and hate under the carpet.
In the 70's is when my eyes began to open up a bit more with library books on minorities in America, and there was this pretty awfully acted movie called "Billy Jack" that had the story line of discrimination against Native Americans.
So in short (ha!) what suspends my reality meter is how truncated all those issues were in such a short time frame.
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Post by deanna0519 on Jun 23, 2021 13:32:01 GMT -5
I agree with moosishun, in that the typical family would probably not have been faced with so much. Having grown up in the 50s and early 60s, I remember how Native Americans and people of color were portrayed on tv, and from today's perspective it was pretty awful. Worst of all was how roles for minorities were so often filled by whites in makeup and costume. Native Americans were either portrayed as noble (Tonto in the Lone Ranger) or thieving, murdering savages. People of color were in subservient roles and always hap, hap, happy at being bossed around by white folks or were cast in comedic roles. Remember Jack Benny's butler Rochester? Charlie Chan? Buckwheat? Terrible. I don't know when special education actually started in the public schools; it seems like if the disability was profound, those kids just stayed home. Those who had mild to moderate disability were described as "slow" and pretty much ignored or ridiculed. Growing up I was completely unaware of homosexuality. People stayed in the closet or were in denial. That ruined a lot of lives. You know, ten years ago I would have said that we had come a long way in matters of justice and equality, but the last few years have certainly proved that we have a long, long way to go.
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Post by juliajones54 on Jun 23, 2021 15:49:57 GMT -5
Ordinary Grace came across to me as more allegorical and parable-like. It felt like it was narrated from a collective memory of events rather than a set of hard facts. I agree though that it was based on the attitudes of the time.
Frank tried desperately to understand everyone's stories through the big themes listed in the prologue: accident, nature, suicide, murder. The hazy steam of summer gave the narrative a dream-like quality. There were so many instances of 'did I really see that or hear that?' That approach deepened the tenseness and the mystery.
I was in the 6th grade in 1966 and a student with epilepsy sat behind me. The kids made horrible fun of him and he had seizures at school that scared me half to death. He would miss school for days at a time. He was not mentally challenged but you can imagine what he was called. I remember he was brilliant in math. No one got in trouble for picking on him. Looking back at his other behaviors and social interactions, I think he was most likely on the Autism spectrum. I never saw him again after that year - either he moved or parents kept him home.
Special Education was not enacted by Congress until 1975 which gave all children with disabilities a right to an education. Resources and specific classes don't stop the stigma but things are much better in schools than they were when I was a kid. As in society at large, still a way to go but students with challenges do graduate from high school now and they go to higher education, and/or to jobs, and live independent and productive lives. I'm a retired school psychologist and worked with several students who were deaf and also diagnosed with autism. Early childhood interventions and technology are miracles for these kids - and for any kids with special needs.
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Post by ccToast on Jun 23, 2021 20:05:18 GMT -5
At the end of the audiobook, there is an additional ten minutes of discussion between an interviewer and the author. In one part they talk about the brokenness of so many the characters, and it made an impression on me.
It's long, but I hope that you don't mind if I share it here:
Interviewer: The characters all seem to share a certain brokenness. For Nathan there is the haunting of the war, for Gus alcoholism. We see failed ambitions: Ruth and her missed music opportunities and then more literal brokenness such as Jake’s stuttering, Ariel’s scars, Emil’s loss of sight, and Lise’s loss of hearing. Can you speak on this idea of brokenness?
William Kent Krueger: It’s amazing to me when I look at this novel that there is so much brokenness in the characters because that really, honestly wasn’t something that I was aware of while I was writing the novel.
But looking at it, I suppose a part of what I was trying to get at is the realization that we are all broken in one way or another. That in a way, what life is about is taking all of these fragmented pieces of who we are and trying to fit them together with the fragmented pieces of other people so that we create a whole out of all of these broken pieces. And it’s not a perfect whole, but somehow through the awful grace of God we make it work.
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Post by fitin14 on Jun 24, 2021 7:04:09 GMT -5
Day 5: Let's talk about 'grace'. In different parts of the book the author mentions the awful grace of God as well as the title being An Ordinary Grace. What do you think the grace of God is and how does it influence the characters in the book?
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Post by deanna0519 on Jun 24, 2021 12:34:55 GMT -5
juliajones54, thanks for that information. I knew that there were special education programs in place shortly after I started teaching in 1973. This is just me and my love/hate relationship with religion, but I have a bit of a problem with the idea of grace and blessings. So the compromise I have come to is that to me grace is the ability to eventually accept and deal with whatever comes your way in life and to go on. Some of the characters in the book could work their way into acceptance, and others could not. I am thankful for life and all the good things that have happened to me, but I don't blame God for the tragedies. Nobody "deserves" bad things to happen to them arbitrarily, and we don't always "deserve" the good things either.
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Post by peacemama on Jun 24, 2021 15:13:20 GMT -5
In the audio interview, Krueger mentioned that he considered titling the novel Awful Grace.
I kept waiting for the moment when the title would be explicitly unveiled. Since I'd grown so fond of Jake's character, I was heart-warmed by the scene.
I'm not religious, but often give thanks and gratitude for "the blessing of an ordinary day."
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Post by fitin14 on Jun 24, 2021 17:04:47 GMT -5
I wonder in Bobby Cole's situation if the awful grace of God was that he was spared a life on earth that was prone to ridicule and not being 100% like everyone else? Sort of a reward in heaven with Jesus along the religion lines?
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Post by juliajones54 on Jun 24, 2021 20:34:27 GMT -5
I grew up in evangelistic churches where God's grace was defined as unmerited or undeserved favor. I went to a seminary for undergraduate education where a Bible major was required. By my 30's, I was not able to reconcile a loving God who offered grace to those who believed and condemnation to those who didn't. Plus the suffering of millions through the ages due to no fault of their own. So, I do still believe in a higher power but I believe more that WE are the grace of God, given to others through the way we treat them.
To me, awful grace - and I really like that description, is the growth, maturity, wisdom, we gain when we go through trials and are willing to learn that there are sparks of hope and even joy if we can hang in there long enough. All of us who have been through very difficult times and who have experienced losses, know this. As Deanna said so well, acceptance moves us forward if we are brave enough to accept.
Whole sermons and Ted Talks could be given on this topic for months!
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Post by fitin14 on Jun 25, 2021 6:50:58 GMT -5
Day 5. Thank you for your great discussion. for the last day I will leave things open to anything you want to say that we haven't. I will say that this book has made me want to read more from the author. Next I will read This Tender Land . I am in Canada and recently there was the discovery of a grave of Indian children at a former residential school so the content of this book is interesting in that light to see that the characters are in a similar school in the US.
How did An Ordinary Grace leave you? happy with the outcome for the characters? wanting more?
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Post by bernelli on Jun 25, 2021 7:40:08 GMT -5
Good morning, TGIF, and I'm always sad when the book chat comes to an end for a book that I just loved. I missed the conversation yesterday due to being on vacation, but I am thinking about grace now and have found the conversations very interesting and insightful -- so many different perspectives. I have always felt that grace was love & acceptance without involvement of ego and personal beliefs (kind of like an altruistic love), which, for me at least, is so hard to get to. I loved this story, and I'm like you, fitin14, in planning to read This Tender Land soon (it's already on my Kindle!). I thought the writing was extraordinary and I couldn't put the story down. I really enjoyed this one -- it may be the best book I've read so far this year. I've got a busy day at work catching up, so I'm not sure I can get back here to participate more today but I'll be reading everyone's thoughts later. Thank you for getting this book on our list to read, and for leading the conversation Fitin!
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Post by peacemama on Jun 25, 2021 8:02:12 GMT -5
Krueger has a vibrant website that he posts to regularly. In this December 30, 2020 entry, he mentioned he was working on a stand alone companion novel to Ordinary Grace and Tender Land: williamkentkrueger.com/2020-highlights/
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Post by bumblebuzz21 on Jun 25, 2021 8:06:24 GMT -5
I found the sermon that the dad did at the service prior to Ariel's service to be really lovely and moving.
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Post by peacemama on Jun 25, 2021 8:11:28 GMT -5
fitin14, Thanks for leading this week's discussion and introducing me to this wonderful author.
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Post by juliajones54 on Jun 25, 2021 9:45:06 GMT -5
I cried when I finished the Epilouge. I just now reread it and cried again. So much beauty in this book, it captures the heart and the longing for the experiences we remember. So much sadness too at the passage of time and the loved ones gone, all of the misunderstandings and grief. And acceptance. That word again!
I think Krueger wrapped up the loose ends in a satisfying way. I was telling my oldest son about this book and he has put it on his list. I would love to meet Krueger - it takes a person of special depth and caring to write like this. I'll be reading his other books and looking forward to a film about Ordinary Grace!
Fitin14, thank you for recommending this book! Your description caught my attention right away. I have enjoyed and learned from everyone's thoughts to great questions. I'm sorry the week is over!
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Post by zoomingzebra on Jun 25, 2021 11:21:21 GMT -5
I loved this book. I want to reread it some day to really take in the details. And I definitely plan to read more of his work. Thank you for leading the discussion!
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sal
This space for rent
Posts: 13,425
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Post by sal on Jun 25, 2021 12:08:11 GMT -5
I kept forgetting to come in here all week (so busy at work), but I loved this book. And it was not one that I thought I would love, so thank you for suggesting it, and the rest of you for voting it in and making me get off my ass to read it.
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Post by ccToast on Jun 26, 2021 8:23:01 GMT -5
fitin14 Thanks so much for leading the discussion this week. I am another person who would not have picked up this book to read on my own, but I loved it. These characters will stay with me for a long time. I started the audiobook for This Tender Land, and it's pulled me in just as Ordinary Grace did. At the beginning of the recording, the author talks about the companion book for Ordinary Grace that he struggled to write, and after he gave it to the publisher he asked them not to publish it because he felt it wasn't right. At that point, he says he could see clearly a story that was meant to be, and that's when he wrote This Tender Land.
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Post by deanna0519 on Jun 27, 2021 17:24:52 GMT -5
Thanks fitin14, for leading the discussion. We were on the road Friday and I didn't get back to this thread until now. Very thoughtful questions and answers. I will be investigating This Tender Land. I like the author a lot. His mystery series with Cork O'Connor is good, but Ordinary Grace was better, I thought. I read a negative review of Ordinary Grace, which I did not agree with at all. The reviewer thought the book was derivative and too much like To Kill a Mockingbird. That is ridiculous. There can be a million books based on the same theme and they will each approach the theme differently. I thought this book was a great addition to the themes of love, loss, prejudice, and grief. Thanks, everyone.
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Post by moosishun on Jul 6, 2021 9:05:52 GMT -5
I don't get the reference to TKAM. Then I guess all books from a child's perspective is a derivative.
Huh.
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Post by roundtoit on Jul 17, 2021 14:35:42 GMT -5
I finished this book this week as it finally came available through Libby. Then, I read the discussion. It was such a good book, I did give it a 5 star review on goodreads, which I rarely do. I also had read This Tender Land before Ordinary Grace and expected great things, which I received. Thank you for putting it on this list.
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Post by juliajones54 on Jul 18, 2021 21:47:21 GMT -5
I finished this book this week as it finally came available through Libby. Then, I read the discussion. It was such a good book, I did give it a 5 star review on goodreads, which I rarely do. I also had read This Tender Land before Ordinary Grace and expected great things, which I received. Thank you for putting it on this list. I'm about halfway through This Tender Land. It's very good also.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2022 20:54:28 GMT -5
WOW. I just finished Ordinary Grace! Like, just this minute. I agree that the writing was excellent and transported me to my small town times.
This isn’t a place where I spill a lot about my personal life But, I have to say this…Jan 18 was the 41st anniversary of the death of my infant son. All these years, later, it’s still painful. I have to say that this author’s description of the funeral day left me raw in its accuracy. The emptiness, the importance of how the events played out that day (the digging of the grave,the walking in as a family…), the emptiness of the well-intentioned words, the inability to put one foot in front of another. I’m going to look it up and see if the author did have a child that died. I did not experience a murder but the emotional loss was extremely well written.
Anyway, I had Emil tagged as the killer, until about 2/3 in. Then Lise occurred to me but I pushed it aside.
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