Book Club. Five Days at Memorial

[Deleted]

I'm just gonna tuck this little trinket in here. I won't be joining you for Ove. I downloaded a sample and I know I can't read that choppy writing style. I'm disappointed because I think I voted for Ove.

[moosishun]

Here are two of the characters I liked in the legal section:

Rider and that other guy who gathered up every shred of evidence they could. I thought that entire office put together an enormous amount of evidence. The fellow who was a lawyer even anticipated all the lawyering-up of the defense and it galvanized him to bring his "A" game. I don't even blame Rider for leaving and finding another job. What a bust.

One of my more unliked people was: AG Foti, who mucked up things, and the prosecuter in the grand jury because he called up hardly anybody to help prove the case. He really was useless.

[gemster]

With hindsight the patients being dumped is absolutely not a good reason to euthanise them, but in the midst of all that chaos and panic then yes I can see why they might think that there was no hope for the sickest patients if they left memorial.

[coffeequeen63]

Morning!

1. Moosi, yeah I wondered about Sheri Fink being sued or something. She pretty pointedly notes all the false things that Pou says in her disaster speeches where she gets a standing ovation. And also the fact that Pou could at some point be charged again. I don't think that would ever happen. Completely unrelated to this book, but did anyone watch The Hunting Ground? Documentary about the rampant sexual assaults on college campuses. I had the same thought about CNN and the football player, Jameis Winston. He threatened to sue, but I don't believe he ever did. He is portrayed in a very negative light, but hey, he's still playing football. He's another one that will likely never be charged.

2. Ok, so full disclosure here, I kind of skimmed through a lot of the legal stuff. As a medical person, I was really interested in the medical part, but kind of got bogged down in the legal proceedings. (See #4 below!!) But, my overall feeling is just that no one wanted to prosecute these people outside of the detectives who did all the work. There was so much ambivalence and people just feeling that the city needed to heal. Clearly, the city rallied behind Dr. Pou, so I think no one wanted to be seen as the bad guy who prosecuted this selfless, brave doctor. Gag.

3. Hoo boy! The epilogue. So much information and not super organized. (See #4 below!!) I actually tried to jot down some notes because there was so much pertaining to where we are today.1. I loved the non-profit NY hospital corporation during Sandy that knew things were going down the tubes and just got to work not only helping their own hospitals, but also helping other hospitals in trouble. Fink described them as a "highly organized, local command center" that was offering proactive and robust assistance. Pretty much the exact opposite of Tenet and Lifecare. 2. So apparently, there are plans and protocols for ventilator rationing in the event of an epidemic. I had no idea. That's something that sort of chills your blood, doesn't it? I mean I guess I see their point in making it a little more clear cut for doctors, but when they "tested" it, it didn't necessarily pan out. They tried it out during a H1N1 pandemic, by having ICU docs determine who they would take off the ventilators and who would get them if there was a shortage. The study showed that the patients who the docs would have withdrawn treatment on all got better and were discharged. Some of the ones they would have worked harder to save, died. Basically, it's a crap shoot. 3. One doc/professor worries that if you have a rationing plan with lower standards of care in place, how low can it go? Will hospital corp ( like a Tenet!!!) use that as an excuse if they don't want to throw more money into resources? Yes!!!!! I totally see that happening. That's a scary thought. 4. Finally, the doc in India who was faced with ventilator shortages for babies during an H1N1 epidemic devised her own homemade CPAP bubbles to keep babies alive. I think that's a big takeaway here; creativity, ingenuity, looking for solutions. That ought to be a class in nursing and med school. In the U.S., we are far too dependent on our machines. When the machines fail, we don't know how to assess and treat patients anymore.

4. So, I agree with Monkey on Fink's writing style. But then I looked at my answer to #3 and I might be just as bad!! Ha! I loved that Monkey mentioned Krakauer though, because I do think he could have made this a more concise telling of the story. Sometimes it was just really confusing because she didn't always keep things in chronological order. She would be going back and revisiting a previous conversation or something and it was hard to keep the timeline straight. It just felt like things got really bogged down at times. I do think she wanted to include everyone's perspective, so sometimes a new "character" was introduced who had like one paragraph. Then it was sort of like, did that really matter? But I'm really happy I read this book and I have really enjoyed everyone's perspective.

[moosishun]

This was one of the defenses that got me pretty mad - how would they know *at the time* that people were being set down and not picked up by someone else?

[rangersma1]

This has been a great discussion.  Thanks to everyone who has been participating.  I definitely agree that the author's writing style was awkward and would have much easier to read with some heavy editing.  She was intent on giving even very minor characters a title and a bio, and were never mentioned again.

[OwlGreen68]

Presumably, she did have editors throughout the process of finishing the book. Why did they leave it so full of unnecessary bits?

[balancedlife]

Lordy, lordy! Sheri needed an editor with a stern hand! Repetitive and, for me, hard to follow at times. Plus, the book would have benefited soooooo much if there had been better and more extensive drawings of the layout of the place. Hell, maybe some photos of some of the relevant locations?

I know that I mentioned that some reviewer talked about her "shimmering prose." I didn't know what that meant and I still don't.

The legal stuff? I don't really know the ins and outs, but she is a Pulitzer Price journalist and I am betting that she took no chances that she could be sued. Not libel if you can cite your sources and stuff?

Glad I read the book and ecstatic when I finally was able to close the covers!

Thank you all for a most thought provoking discussion. There are some mighty fine minds here!

[balancedlife]

CoffeeQ, re: your mention of the doctor in India. Yes, yes, yes! Put minds together and brainstorm and don't just stand around waiting for someone else to take charge or for the cavalry to come riding over the hill.

Also, I had not thought about the ramifications of having certain plans and protocols written down which might have unnecessary consequences like setting things up for people and especially corporations to dodge responsibility. Tough call. Although no one could deny the value of a written plan which includes keeping mechanical equipment out of water -- LOL.

[MonkeyTwirl]

1. Why hasn't Sheri Fink gotten her pants sued off? 1. You can sue anyone for anything, but that doesn't mean you can win. 2. What do Pou et al have to gain from giving this case more publicity? 3. I doubt any of them need the money, and Fink probably doesn't have much anyway. 4. They've already spent agonizing years in the legal arena, why would they invite more of that into their lives?

2. What did you think about the legal process on this thing and who were your favorite/less-favorite characters? Being a proponent of euthanasia, I had a hard time relating to everyone on the investigator/prosecutor side. It seemed to me a tremendous waste of resources when they should have gone after corporations, and when there are so much more horrible things to investigate and prosecute. I did appreciate hearing more about a perspective other than my own, and understand that they came from a place of compassion seeking justice.

3. How about the epilogue and do you think that what happened at Memorial influenced other actions in similar situations? I haven't made it there yet. But from you people said, it sounds like a slog!

and for Monkey:

4. How's about that writing style? Thanks for indulging me, Moosi! OMG! Get an editor!

Too many minor characters, perhaps brought in for context, but it's too much.

In one section she reports a phone conversation between the coroner and investigator. "John Doe, J-O-H-N D-O-E, had morphine and Ativan in his blood. And she does this for EVERY patient. Why do we need to read their names twice?

One time, she actually writes, "About a dozen and a half hospitals" instead of "18 hospitals." Please! Six words where one would do. The extra words don't add, they detract, as the reader has to stop and convert wordy into 18.
The book is poorly organized as well.

Another thing about her style REALLY bothered me. She often described characters as stout, round, ample, obese, and other negative comments on their physical characteristics. She seemed obsessed with Pou's "poofy" hair. I guess she thinks this is painting a picture, but I found it annoying, distracting, condescending and weird.

[gemster]

I've just found this, looks like one of the doctors did try to sue Fink but it was unsuccessful which probably explains why none of the others went down that path.

www.memorialhospitaltruth.com/drwill.html

[moosishun]

An editor with a stern hand!! Ha!

[ural]

I am about three quarters through with this book. I have enjoyed reading all the comments. Since I am almost 83 years old, I have wondered how I might have been treated, had I been one of the patients. I live just below Houston so we "ran" from the storm when it was headed toward the coast.

Thanks for letting me lurk.

[chalkitup]

I'm only about 70% finished with the book, so I feel like I can't really answer any more questions.

As for the writing style, I'm not sure I liked it. It was kind of hard to follow a lot of the time and then sometimes seemed too distant, but then was overly familiar, like she was trying to be witty. It was just odd to me. On one hand, I liked that it wasn't written too much from the perspective of the people who were there, but on the other hand, there was unnecessary distance at times.

[balancedlife]

Okay, I must say that I am rather enjoying the discussions that are happening in the wee boxettes. Moosi, I think you got them back, right? Thank you!

Everyone have a lovely evening! And, if you are under the heat dome that is hovering over the country, stay cool and hydrate, hydrate, hydrate. I am hating this heat. A lot!

[gemster]

I don't see why we can't keep the discussion going so ural chalkitup and anyone else who is still reading or just finishing can join in. I'm going to re-read some of the bits I skimmed/missed/don't remember so will probably have more to say too

[moosishun]

Gem, there is probably no way that the wee little comments could be part of the notifications, is there?

[chalkitup]

moosishun I'm about 70% done. I've only been reading at night before bed this week. I get about 3 pages done before I start rereading the same sentence over and over.

Dang! I thought tagging people in the comments might work. I was trying to find a way around not getting notifications for the little comments.

[balancedlife]

Oh, I would love to have comment notification! But if that cannot be, I am considering writing my little comment, then posting here in the quick reply that I have written something so fabulous that it is worth a look and referring to the reply number where I posted it. So there.

[gemster]

balancedlife moosishun chalkitup I have checked with Becca and Holand and as I thought there is no way to get notifications for comments, for some reason this site doesn't support it & there's nothing we can do to turn them on - sorry!

[gemster]

balancedlife I'm not putting this in the comments as want to make sure you see it

If you go to your profile up at the top of the board, then click notifications it will tell you who has liked a post of yours, who has quoted it and who has tagged you - like I've done here

If you click on activity in your profile you will see all your posts so it's an easy way to find your way back to the threads you've posted to.

[moosishun]

My husband is one of those types who is always interested in getting things done the right way from the start. He understands electricity and electronics and wiring and plumbing and all this stuff that is a foreign language to me. He says the hardest thing to get funded are the behind-the-scenes infrastructures because it seems expensive at the time but when things go wrong, it's *really* expensive.

The bottom line does not look favorably on safety precautions/procedures/equipment/etc.

It's not just Tenet, it's just about everybody. I just saw a documentary talking about the problem with the inner workings of our society: water pipes, bridges, electrical towers/wires. Flint, Michigan is a screaming example.

[gemster]

Jul 23, 2016 13:06:19 GMT -5 gemster said:

balancedlife moosishun chalkitup I have checked with Becca and Holand and as I thought there is no way to get notifications for comments, for some reason this site doesn't support it & there's nothing we can do to turn them on - sorry!

I'm quoting this one as just want to make sure people see it 

Handy hint from Becca - if you are adding a comment to a post then click 'like' on the post as well, even if it's your own post as it will be a reminder to come back and check for more comments, if it's someone else's post then they will get a notification that you've liked it which should remind them to come back and check for comments.

[coffeequeen63]

Hi Everyone!

So, this book is really sticking with me. I had 2 last random thoughts about it. *********Anyone who has had to deal with the death of a loved one, may not want to read my #1. I don't want to be the cause of pain or bad memories for anyone reading. ********

1. I think the thing that has really been bothering me about the euthanasia is that those people died with strangers. The patients who were already close to death were likely not going to be able to die with their family anyway, but I still think that many of the patients could have made it out. And the fact that the Lifecare people all left meant that the patients died by the hands of and with complete strangers. They didn't know Pou or the Memorial nurses at all. That is just really bothering me. I think that would haunt me as a family member. Wondering if they knew what was happening and were scared and nobody they knew was with them. I'm sorry. I know that is really kind of morbid, but it is really bothering me. It makes me wonder if they just injected the patient and then moved onto the next? Did anyone hold the people's hand as they died? In the ICU's I worked in, the nurses always stayed with patients as they died if family wasn't present. It just seemed like Pou and the nurses were so clinically detached from what they were doing. It was just something that had to be done. And I admit that I don't really know how it all went down, so this may be a very unfair assessment.

2. Sorry for that depressing thought. So, on a totally lighter note..... Can I say that I freaking love that Charity Hospital was kicking ass in the patient care department and even held a talent show during the disaster? They had their shit 100% together and still tried to inject some levity into what had to have been a terrifying situation. Love that!

[moosishun]

I loved Charity!

It makes me want to tear my heart out to think of #1. It is like those doctors had absolutely no heart at all, especially when they ordered all the family members out. WHAT WERE THEY THINKING? I think about when my parents died, and it was hard enough to leave my mother in the next room as she "wound down" (this was the hospice nurse's recommendation because she said my mom needed to be assured that it was okay to go and time away from us to go) and she really was a few hours away from certain death. I think right now I might have decided to stay in there, but the nurse said my mom knew that all of us were there. We had been up all night anyway and were all gathered in the living room taking cat-naps. God, what a hard and terrible time for us, and I think that this was also a hard and terrible time for the family members at Memorial. For doctors to treat it as part of their work day really made me want me to pelt them with rocks.

We surrounded my dad at the hospital and I was so happy we did. He was pretty much already gone but we waited to take off his life support until my sister and brother got there at the hospital. I could not think of a better to way to "send him off". However, we did have his oncologist take me aside and say "Look, let him go right now" and I said "but I would like to wait for my sister and brother to get here first." Finally, a nurse came over to me and said "You wait as long as you need to wait." And then she stared really hard at the doctor. And then we were left alone.

All that to say that I cannot imagine the pain and gut-kick that it was to have to feel like you had to leave and then find out that your mom didn't make it during that little 24 hour period without you being there for her.

Just awful.