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Post by gemster on Apr 21, 2020 5:52:46 GMT -5
I’m with wonderturtle , a lot of stuff went over my head but I just didn’t like the book enough to really care that much. yes I was very surprised that there was a narrator and that it was Libby, I’ve no idea why her and I’m suspicious as to how reliable she is as a narrator given her narrative was mainly based on what Toby was telling her (so second or third hand information) so the reader doesn’t have any way of knowing how much of it was true.
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Post by moosishun on Apr 21, 2020 7:23:00 GMT -5
I think Libby found out Toby's truth, which is important but not necessarily an entire story.
This reminds me of when I got married and thought I was the by-far easiest person in the world to live with. I had been single a long time and I got along with myself extremely well! This was not a correct assessment.
I think Toby was the same way - he got along with himself just fine, carried some baggage on self image, but generally thought he was a very good guy with purely altruistic motives. I think when Libby called him an asshole, he was shocked. SHOCKED, I tell ya. Perhaps when Rachel got to the door and he had realized that this business with Jeannie and Narina was really not for him, maybe perhaps maybe they will iron things out and see a counselor in a new light. Perhaps Libby told Rachel some things about Toby that softened Rachel up.
I don't blame Rachel for wanting the finer things in life - she totally earned it and the fact that Toby could be such an ass about saying "Well, now, I really don't want all that" blahblahblah, when he liked it just fine. What if Rachel had been Toby - would this have even come up?
There are a lot of gender tensions between the two of them that have to do exactly with the expectation of gender behavior.
I am pretty mad that Toby fired Mona. That was a bad day for her, no doubt, but she deserved a do-over.
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Post by moosishun on Apr 21, 2020 7:25:51 GMT -5
My brain was exploding with the 'we" and "us" business when Libby introduced. And in fact, at first, I was highly irritated that this turn had been taken. Who the factoid was LIBBY??? I calmed down enough to continue reading, but that was a moment when I almost threw my computer across the room.
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Post by bumblebuzz21 on Apr 21, 2020 7:31:57 GMT -5
I liked Libby as the narrator. I don't mistrust the narrators in books (as evidenced by We Were Liars) so I never once thought that what she was telling us was incorrect. I also think it helped see Toby as more of a dick.
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Post by wonderturtle on Apr 21, 2020 8:00:10 GMT -5
I think that the firing of Mona was something that really influenced my thinking about Toby. His continued pursuit of casual sex with the women from the dating apps while he had children who had no idea what happened with their mother at home was really off putting for me. I felt like he should have put his own carnal desires aside for a short time so he could be fully present for his kids while they needed him.
As for Rachel, I feel as if she did have a bit of a breakdown. She was striving to always get the next “thing” and she did not have a partner who had that same drive. She thought she found that the second time around, and he abandoned her because he was looking for somebody who could relax and just “have fun” which was completely NOT her style.
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sal
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Posts: 13,424
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Post by sal on Apr 21, 2020 8:59:52 GMT -5
I liked Libby as the point of view, because you got a sense of what Toby HAD been like when they were younger, and you saw at least a bit of the weird dynamic he and Rachel had had in their early marriage through an outside (though not impartial) lens.
I also liked that Libby flipped after running into Rachel and realized that her perceptions were NOT 100% accurate on Toby, and therefore ours clearly hadn't been, either.
I think the WaPo article makes a good point that Libby is heavily influenced by Taffy herself (similar job situations, kids, etc) which was probably a large part of why she decided to go there with the peripheral narrator.
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sal
This space for rent
Posts: 13,424
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Post by sal on Apr 21, 2020 9:01:08 GMT -5
I am finding it somewhat hilarious that I am one of few people in here that actually liked this book, and I was also one of few that HATED Eleanor Oliphant. Not sure what that says about me.
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Post by moosishun on Apr 21, 2020 9:11:46 GMT -5
Count me as #4 in liking this book!
There is a lot to it, really.
I think there is something also to be said about our relationships among people when we are in that young adult stage of life. Those 3 never lost touch. Plus, I think Libby had already come into the notion that Toby was a bit of an asshole before running into Rachel, which helped her really listen to Rachel. After I got over the warp speed change between 3rd person and narrator, I thought it was pretty neat that Libby would be the one to officiate this story. She perhaps knew Toby in the most honest of ways. She was really only a few steps above a mere acquaintance with Rachel and could still see Rachel's point of view.
Again, I have to question if this would have been that much of a story if Rachel had been a man and Toby the woman in this book. Women every day do what Toby did and forego promotions and are primary caretakers of kids and if they had a husband like Rachel, would be spending most nights minus the husband at dinner.
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Post by lilybbb on Apr 21, 2020 10:58:02 GMT -5
Thanks for posting the review, sal. I think it's spot on. That's partially what I was trying to say yesterday when people were flaming about how horrible Toby was, etc.--all of the characters have flaw, which makes sense, because all humans have flaws. I think our relationships with other people (including, but not limited to, romantic partnerships) reveal different things about ourselves as some posters have mentioned with their own marriages and experience. The genius of having Libby as the narrator lies in the revelation of character. It's another place where the discussion about whether or not she is a "reliable narrator" is frustrating to me because, as a character, she's doing her best to reliably narrate based on her own experience--what she sees and hears and knows to be true. Her narrative evolves as her experience does. I'd venture to say this is true with any narrator other than third-person omniscient. I mean, you could really go down the road of realism vs. romanticism... but she narrates reliably and realistically, as I would expect her to once we know more about her character. I was delighted when the narrator was revealed! I was like ohhhhhhhh this makes so much more sense now--I wish I still had the book available because I didn't make notes, but there were certain passages and descriptions early on that really fell into place once you knew that the story was being told by a friend of Toby's. I don't think you can fairly speculate on how the story would be different if it was written from a different point of view precisely because one of the main themes of the book is perspective and another is gendered perspective. So much of the character development in the story is less growth of the actual characters, but more a deeper understanding of them as more information from different perspectives is revealed to the reader. Point of view drives this story definitely more than plot and I'd even argue more than character.
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Post by lilybbb on Apr 21, 2020 11:29:48 GMT -5
I think it's really interesting that several people had said their favorite characters were Adam or Solly. They are the least-developed characters in the entire book. Solly is just a kid--we are generally much more forgiving of children, anyway.
HAHA they are like dating profiles. Just a glimpse. Things get a lot more complicated when details, personalities, and feelings emerge.
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Post by moosishun on Apr 21, 2020 12:36:01 GMT -5
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Post by moosishun on Apr 21, 2020 12:39:48 GMT -5
I think I would be a little more interested in a person with flaws that would be deal-breakers to me but not necessarily so over-the-top. But then, that might not sell books.
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Post by moosishun on Apr 21, 2020 12:58:25 GMT -5
So much was over the top. Her salary, for one.
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Post by bernelli on Apr 21, 2020 14:08:39 GMT -5
I'm so late to posting and the conversation has already been incredible. There's so much good stuff to discuss about this book!
Oh yes, I was very surprised to figure out that Libby was the narrator. My huge question kept playing in my head, "WHY?" Then Libby ended up living a role similar to that of the author.... I think that Libby represents Tabby and many of the thought processes we're looking at from all angles were Tabby's struggles (I don't mean having a best friend like Toby, I mean more of losing yourself within a marriage, within a job role, within society, women friendships, men friendships, etc). I found myself sympathizing quite a lot with the idea of fighting to retain a piece-of-me while watching that all blow out to sea while I was having babies & working fulltime and trying to be a mom-wife-worker--- where the hell did I go? It was a painful phase to go through.
I'm rambling now. I just saw some of myself in parts of the story now and then.
I have no idea what it says about point of view. I'm not smart enough to answer that one.
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Post by moosishun on Apr 21, 2020 15:11:31 GMT -5
Silly! Point of view exists throughout this book. Toby's point of view was that he was the aggrieved poor-me spouse. Rachel's point of view was that she was going crazy at work and not having a supportive relationship. I wonder what Seth's Point of view was and man, I would love to know how Jeannie's was. Ha! And I wonder what the marriage counselor had to say about both of them, even though it doesn't look like either of them cared one fig about her POV.
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Post by moosishun on Apr 22, 2020 6:33:02 GMT -5
DAY 3:
Here are a few possible paths we can take here:
The undercurrent of sex, hooking up, married sex, date apps, faithful/unfaithful, what do you make of it? Lily made a great point of saying that the dating apps did some defining of Toby and was really artistically done. Me? I might have just put this book down in 3 pages.
Along with that, gender roles - where is this story placed anyway? The use of gender roles in this book - how about even the (as I see it) the perception of a most sacred profession (physicians)?
How about that poor lady who died of that liver disease and the perception of husband to Toby (at first) and then talking to her bff later?
Go on with your bad selves!
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Post by bumblebuzz21 on Apr 22, 2020 7:09:22 GMT -5
Dating sounds terrible. I have never once sent a dirty pic or text (sorry DH) and I can't imaging having to do that regularly. I really like sex though, so I guess I would figure it out.
I think the only thing Toby realized from the lady dying was that his perception of them having this perfect marriage was wrong (again all about him). I was so sad when her bff said that she was just about to get out and that was the saddest thing about her dying.
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Post by bernelli on Apr 22, 2020 7:53:47 GMT -5
I was really surprised by the sex-dating app stuff. I didn't know that was out there... two/three people have confirmed that yes, it's really like that. Toby liked it. He seemed to be like a kid in a candy store, and then he got to be a regular with "that one lady" (My kindle loan ended, and I don't know her name, sorry!). I found it so interesting that when they finally went out in public he suddenly thought she looked older, he noticed lines on her face... he was de-mystified suddenly. I know it's a negative thing, but I found that so interesting. Toby was a disappointment, and I think that was intentional.
He was a disappointment in his marriage, but he really did love and care about his kids. He loved his work, but he was a disappointment to Rachel for not being a ladder climber.
All the characters (not Solly) were disappointing and yet had some good characteristics as well...just like all of us.
I'm still wondering what the heck was the main theme/reasoning behind this story. I do feel that Tabby has a message because she's pretty specific in her gender-role-bending and lack of ability for people to empathize in spite of their selfishness.
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Post by moosishun on Apr 22, 2020 8:01:27 GMT -5
I think she did a great job of opening the conversation of breadwinners and expectations of gender in that scenario.
I think Rachel was in that really hard spot of having to start delegating her duties and she had not hired enough talented people to be able to turn into the "franchise owner" . I get that Toby would rather be a hands-on doctor but all the smarmy things he said about people who helped pay his salary by going out there and getting contracts, etc., was pretty asshole-y (yet again). His thought about his former mentor was most ungracious.
I know that Toby was most disappointed in not getting that position but he is a good doctor and his chance will come. He was needed at home and he made a right choice about being there because somebody had to be there. He bit the hand that fed him by getting rid of Mona, but he still made the righter choice. Things will change as the children get older. I did feel sorry for Rachel that she was not going to see that side of the kids but her role was much different and she provided an incredible life-style for them.
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Post by lilybbb on Apr 22, 2020 8:49:58 GMT -5
One of the first things that got my attention about this book was how wonderful a job the author did with the dating apps--including the selfies, emojis, etc. Y'all can go peek in any of the Online Dating threads in the GDT for confirmation!
I didn't view Toby as at all obsessed with the apps--I mentioned in a small comment on the first page how he seems so ambivalent about them, which is how I think most users feel! He kind of wants to respond when some rando woman sends him a boob pic or more, but he often turns down dates or doesn't respond because he is busy with his kids. He's attempting to date to get over Rachel and move on with his life, but he also can't fully commit to dating because he's involved with his kids, Rachel's not always reliable, etc. And that's not even mentioning that many of the women who message him aren't really looking to date, either.
Dating apps are difficult for so many reasons--they are "always there" but there's not a lot of permanence with them. Many people aren't sure what they are looking for--they may want a relationship in the long run, but they are also seeking companionship and often SEX in the meantime. How do you know which approach to take with which person on the app?! First "dates" aren't really even dates--they are more like interviews. The parts that I think many readers skimmed, to me, are so insightful about Toby's feelings--towards the women and towards himself. They also show the wide variety of results when dating online. I found every single bit of this to be realistic and accurate. Painfully so.
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Post by lilybbb on Apr 22, 2020 8:59:19 GMT -5
Probably a lot of us have a hard time wrapping our heads around the salaries because we've never been close to that kind of celebrity PR! Maybe we have to work with not just a reliable narrator, but a reliable author here On a somewhat smaller scale, I've seen the same sort of thing happen, though--a friend of mine was a nanny for a family until... he went to prison, they got divorced, he filed bankruptcy, etc. and she just can't live on like $24K/month in alimony and child support. So settled into a particular way of life. And I suppose Toby's job status resonated with me personally AND I think it was representative of his indecision/insecurity that is also shown in his dating life--he just doesn't really know what he wants. Going back to how would this be different if Toby was a woman--I don't think in that case anyone would question him leaving at 5:30 to take care of his children, nor would anyone be surprised at him being passed over for a promotion. I think he thought about it in a wishful way but never actively pursued his candidacy. There's something to be said for privileged expectation there--I see both the expectation and the disappointment at my work frequently.
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Post by moosishun on Apr 22, 2020 10:18:51 GMT -5
I also found it very interesting that he did allow Rachel to have sex with him on her terms even after the separation.
I think he wants this thing to work out and he needs a ton of therapy to not be so furious at her. She needs a ton of therapy to get her head on straight and not have to control every damned thing around her.
Looks like a lot of hills to climb.
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Post by moosishun on Apr 22, 2020 10:25:16 GMT -5
I have to say that I am loving this discussion, even in the tiny lines!
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Post by moosishun on Apr 22, 2020 10:28:14 GMT -5
And actually, I think Toby needs a ton of therapy to not be so furious with himself.
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Post by moosishun on Apr 22, 2020 16:57:10 GMT -5
I'll tell you what I found pretty incredible. You would expect that someone that had Rachel's business would be in the millions of dollars per year range. She had it and she wanted to spend it. The fact that Toby would put so much importance to that as if it were an irritant (and it was to him) is that I think subconsciously he would have liked his family to have lived off of his salary. And sure he had a say, but if his say was to say "let's just not do it because we don't need it" well, heck, that's unfair to this breadwinner over here that probably needs that summer house to get away from the multiple stressors in her life. And also, needs a big enough space so that if she has to work or entertain, that place would be able to handle it. Toby not only didn't know what was truly involved in Rachel's work, HE DIDN'T WANT TO KNOW. Can you imagine a wife getting so hot and bothered by her husband's 15-times-greater-than-hers salary?
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