GDT Bookclub: Don't Call It a Cult (NXIVM)

[bernelli]

Hello everyone participating in this discussion -- here we go! I'm looking forward to learning what your thoughts on this book/situation are.

Don't Call It a Cult: The Shocking Story of Keith Raniere and the Women of NXIVM

Day 1: How much did you know about NXIVM prior to reading this book?

Since learning about NXIVM and reading this book, have you had other exposure to NXIVM and what is your overall understanding, feeling, thoughts about the teachings, Keith himself, the group?

[bernelli]

I've got a busy work day, so I'm posting my response and will pop back in later this afternoon.

My previous knowledge about NXIVM was mostly confusion about what the heck is this. I knew there were some famous actresses involved, and thought it was just a group of women tricked into being in a sex cult (I thought it was more along the lines of R. Kelley).

Since we chose this book for October, I did some other reading and listened to a podcast.
I read "Scarred: The True Story of How I Escaped NXIVM, the Cult that Bound My Life" by Sara Edmondson
I listened to the podcast "Escaping NXIVM"

And I googled so much all the way through reading the two books. I started watching "The Vow" but only saw one episode.

It still surprises me so much that current-day-modern people fall for this ... it must be masked so well as self-help, personal growth & therapy.

I was also surprised to learn there were several men involved and even learning sessions geared only toward men...the curriculum disgusted me.

[lilybbb]

Shockingly, I really didn't know anything about it. I have read/watched quite a bit on both cults AND MLMs, so it was surprising to me that it hadn't been on my radar.

Per my usual, I did a bit of Wikipedia/Google rabbit hole while reading, but didn't find anything particularly significant. This definitely is a case of turning the temperature up slowly--and all the usual behaviors of making people feel like part of something special and exclusive.

[bumblebuzz21]

I had heard of it, but hadn't watched any other documentaries or listened to any podcasts. Like with all cults I am left thinking WTF? And I agree with lily, this definitely seemed to be the case of the frog in boiling water. Like, how did I end up here? I have kind of mentioned this before to my friends when I hear about these things...I am, I think, a pretty shallow person. I've never wanted to "better" myself or learn about life's/the universe's secrets so these kind of classes and cults just make no sense to me. I literally cannot wrap my head around why anyone would do this. I guess being shallow has some perks

[honeybzzzs]

Living in the PNW I had heard about this but didn’t pay a lot of attention.
This book is really interesting reading. It boggles my mind that people get sucked into these things, and the money they spend! Yikes!
I’m not rich enough to join a cult!
I did listen to the podcast Escaping NXIVM. I will listen to the others that were recommended also.

[honeybzzzs]

Oh, we already had JZ Knight in Yelm, WA. We are sort of used to getting the kooks! 🤣🤣

[moosishun]

I am so sorry, folks. I am just not in a good place to do some reading right now. If you can be patient with me, I will be back.

Carry on! You are in good hands!!

[lilybbb]

Oct 4, 2021 7:59:23 GMT -5 bumblebuzz21 said:

I've never wanted to "better" myself or learn about life's/the universe's secrets so these kind of classes and cults just make no sense to me.

Interestingly, I can see the appeal here... and I have plenty of friends/acquaintances who I see getting sucked into these sorts of things. I find Daniela's experience particularly heartwrenching because she had SO much potential that was just destroyed.

However, I'm thinking specifically of two former friends of mine. Neither one is particularly "smart" or a skilled critical thinker, but it's very important to them to appear "wise" somehow. One of them constantly posts about her Indian cooking and Indian music and the classes she's taking to become a "certified mindfulness coach," but in reality I always see her doing the bougiest things... The other one has definitely gotten into MLM-type businesses with magnets, chakra stimulation, etc. I think there's an element to the more mystical approaches that lends itself to this kind of culture, sadly.

[bernelli]

Day 2:
Today's conversation segues off of what lilybbb just mentioned.

Do you know anyone in a cult (now or previously) -- and what is/was that experience like for you as a friend/acquaintance/family member?
Do you recognize anything within yourself that might have put you in a situation to get sucked in, even a little, to the tactics of a controlling group?

[bumblebuzz21]

I do not know anyone in a cult, but I have read/watched quite a few things about them trying to understand. The only thing I see within myself that could get me sucked in is the desire to follow rules. However, I am also quick to say this is bullshit, I'm out.

[bernelli]

I have not known anyone sucked into a cult. The closest I come to that was my infatuation with John Travolta when I was a teen, learning he was into Scientology and trying to find out about it. Scientology was a closely guarded secret back then... with the Leah Remini exposure and the Going Clear documentary, more information is easily available now.

There was a cult near my college that we were warned to avoid... a ranch that was supposedly guarded by gunmen (?) The freshman orientation included an entire speech about avoiding that location. I never heard or saw anything more about that though.

I actually DO recognize stuff in myself that would probably have made me easy cult-bait. I'm really into learning about "stuff" and improving myself, self-help, and I always had that longing to belong. The best thing I have going for myself is that I am poor, and the money that I do have isn't given away easily!

[lilybbb]

I grew up belong to a very small religious community that has been described as a cult in some places. My personal experience was not at all cult-like, but others in the organization, particularly in Australia, had cult-like experiences. Beliefs are similar to those of Jehovah's Witness or Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith or even Messianic Jews. Interestingly, members are the first to point out fault with similar organizations--it reminds me of how MLMs are adamant with their circular logic--"pyramid schemes are illegal so we are not a pyramid scheme."

I also had a brief experience with an MLM. I was in my mid-30s in 2009, extremely underemployed working in a restaurant with my master's degree after teaching high school and college. I was recruited to sell insurance through an employment site--and had no idea it was an MLM. I looked at the opportunity only because I was in such a terrible place--and I definitely think that is the type of people these organizations prey on. I lasted about a month. When they were like, oh, you can recruit other people to sell, I was out immediately. And then chastised for giving my "leads" to other people in my situation instead of giving them back to the person who, in retrospect, I realize was my upline.

[honeybzzzs]

I don’t know anyone who was in a cult. I don’t have tendencies towards that. I don’t mind rules but my introverted personality tends to stir me away from large crowd activities.

There was a time my DH was involved in selling term life insurance. I can’t even remember the name of the company now. Looking back it had properties of an MLM.

[bernelli]

Sorry for the late post! I got caught up in the day ... here we go -- DAY 3:

What do you think, reading this story and learning about other cults/groups that are heavy on the control, can help people actually see the red flags?

Why do you think people miss the fact that they're getting pulled into a doomed situation?

What kind of thought conversation/influence would be helpful to keep yourself or a friend/loved one from falling for this?

...how can you tell this is happening and how to avoid it?

[bumblebuzz21]

I don't think a whole lot of anything will help people see the flags. I think that a lot of that occurs because people put up blinders.

[bernelli]

I hope this is a good day3 conversation topic. I think, as I read and learn about Scientology, NXIVM, the Weigh Down Diet cult (I forget the name), my biggest question is "how did this happen and why can't they see this is wrong?"

A very good friend of mine has a cousin who's daughter's wedding is actually on the marketing material for the Gwen Shamblin (Weigh Down Diet cult). She's worried for her daughter but can't get her to "see".

I don't know what I would do... I don't feel that I'm a good negotiator or a strong influencer. I've always been more of a person that is "live and let live" and we can agree to disagree without hating each other... so I tend to do my thing, make my own choices and sometimes my opinions change and sometimes friends opinions change...it's all in flux. But there are times when I think it would be so important in someone's life to show them something sketchy is happening. But how?. I'm not even sure I believe that interventions help at all other than to tell someone "I love you and I"m interfering in your life because I love you", and then the person will be irritated and wait for it to end then continue down their path.

[lilybbb]

These organizations absolutely prey on people who are susceptible for whatever reasons. Cults and MLM are similar to domestic violence offenders and abusers in the way that they choose their victims and separate people from their other support networks.

I do think I am a strong influencer (my number one strength in StrengthsFinder is Woo!) and I definitely share my experiences with people without being accusatory or cutting people off.

I'm hoping that with the increasing popularity of books such as this one, Leah Remini's disclosures, docuseries like LulaRich, podcasts like The Dream... that a wider audience is seeing these organizations revealed. It's a safe, non-personal warning!

[bernelli]

DAY 4:

What did you think of the delivery of the information?
Was it effective in sharing the deep details of the story?
What about the "cast of characters" provided in the beginning of the book - did you find that useful?
Will this stand the test of time, since court cases are still in session?

[bernelli]

I am very curious to know what everyone thinks about the delivery/writing style.

I liked it, and found the chronological (for the most part) information to be really helpful.
I loved that she went back into KAR's life and found the guy that provided that horrible video that ended up being a part of "curriculum" later on. It was helpful to me to get more of his younger-years story.

I had read Scarred right before reading this, and also listened to the podcast and watched so many videos just before reading this book that I felt that this book was filling in holes left from the other information I'd scoured. So I'm curious to know what you all think.

[honeybzzzs]

To answer yesterday’s question.
People get into these things because they are missing something in their life and they feel this is the life rope being tossed to them. Their family’s can’t help provide those ‘things’.
In the case of NXIVM the ‘thing’ was how to get a leg up on the competition. How to be a better actor, business person, etc. It only costs a few dollars and your time why not try it.
Many people did go to those classes, tried a few and walked away. They didn’t get sucked in. And some did stay and got sucked in, hook, line and sinker.
I think it all has to do with the persons mind set at the time.

A few years ago, I listened to Steve Hassan talk about how he got sucked into the Moonies as a young college student. He was away from home for the first time, he had just lost his girl friend, he hadn’t made any new friends yet. Then 3 pretty women joined him at his lunch table, invited him to a gathering at their house, and he said Sure!

He did finally extract himself from Sun Myong Moon’s cult, and he has made it his life’s work to help extract others from cults.
One thing he says is that interventions don’t work. His technique is more “let me tell you my story”, and as others see the similarities they start to see how they have been duped.

He has a new book out titled The Cult of Trump. Should be interesting reading.

[lilybbb]

Definitely a journalistic writing style! Which is what I expected from the subject matter and the fact that the author was not directly involved.

One of my frustrations with reading on Kindle is that I often forget title and author names since I'm not seeing them constantly. Interestingly, I was reading along assuming the author was a man until I finished and something in the notes mentioned the woman author. I thought about why I had made that assumption... and also thought in some contexts it made more sense for a woman to have access to the more personal interview info, etc. I'm still working that out, especially as I tend to be very sensitive to gender bias and stereotypes!

I get why she included the cast of characters at the beginning, but I would rather have had it as an appendix at the end. I hate when books have info like that up front because I start reading it like I have to remember it, realize that I'm not going to, can use it as a reference, and finally skip on by... !!!

There were also a few places where the foreshadowing was a bit heavy-handed, like some kind of Dateline commercial break cliffhanger... but overall, very well-laid out and easy to follow.

[lilybbb]

Oct 7, 2021 8:01:13 GMT -5 honeybzzzs said:

His technique is more “let me tell you my story”, and as others see the similarities they start to see how they have been duped.

Yes! This is the best approach--needs to come with empathy.

[lilybbb]

bernelli, I saw your small comment about The Dream podcast. IMO the first season is awesome--each episode focuses either on a particular MLM or on an aspect of MLM culture. Once they've covered history of MLMs and some of the first/most popular/most current, they take a look at all of the political relationships, history of related laws, etc. It is fascinating!

The second season gets into the popularity of MLMs in the wellness industry... some pieces there remind me of Maintenance Phase subject material. INteresting, but not as well done as the first season.

[bernelli]

Day 4 -- Please share the main point you came away from reading this book with.

What about this story initially made you want to read this book?

Please share any other thoughts that we haven't already discussed this week.

And thank your for participating.

[bernelli]

A bit of a bunny trail -- I have been listening to The Dream Podcast pretty much the entire day & this morning. I'm finishing season 1 *right now*.
So interesting, and gave me more information about what MLM's (pyramid schemes) are, and why they get away with what they get away with (especially Amway). I recently watched LuLaRich, and this goes so well hand-in-hand with that.

THANKS for recommending it!