Book Club. Five Days at Memorial

[balancedlife]

Okay, not the worst I have done, eh?

Question: Do we miss the wee little comment boxes? I kind of do, although I am not sure exactly how they work. It was kind of nice to quickly post a comment for that poster.

Of course, I bring this up knowing quite well that even if everyone wanted the boxettes back, I wouldn't have a clue how to reach Becca to ask her to make it happen.

Off to a little breakfast. Y'all have a good one!

[gemster]

I am at work and it's busy! Will BBL to join in as I have lots to say

[gemster]

Jul 21, 2016 10:08:24 GMT -5 balancedlife said:

Okay, not the worst I have done, eh?

Question: Do we miss the wee little comment boxes? I kind of do, although I am not sure exactly how they work. It was kind of nice to quickly post a comment for that poster.

Of course, I bring this up knowing quite well that even if everyone wanted the boxettes back, I wouldn't have a clue how to reach Becca to ask her to make it happen.

Off to a little breakfast. Y'all have a good one!

Most people seemed to want comments off when we discussed it before, but Book Club being Book Club and us being the un-herdable cats that we are I think we may have changed our minds??

what does everyone think - off or on??

[coffeequeen63]

Morning!

1. Social media. Hmmmm.......not sure I think it would have made much of a difference. I mean the Superdome was possibly even more fucked up than Memorial and the press was onsite there. I remember watching live coverage at the time and at one point, Sheperd Smith was basically screaming into the camera for someone to come help those people. I'd never seen an anchor just lose it on live TV before. I think the scope of the disaster was so immense and it took the government and FEMA a looooooong time to figure that out. I think social media would have spread the word worldwide pretty quickly how poorly the U.S. handled this disaster.

2. Lessons from Memorial. 1. You'd better have a damn strong leader in place. That Susan chick to me, along with Thiele may be the 2 biggest villains in all this. She should have been working with Lifecare to help coordinate care and evacuations. She was freaking trying to turn rescue helicopters away. Ummm..... No. 2. Keep everyone in the communication loop. Not just doctors. Makes everyone feel involved and cuts down on fear and feelings of no control. 3. I still go back to Charity and the "can only say it if you've seen it." That's really brilliant. Stop rumors and fear mongering that lead to stress and poor decisions. 4. When things go wrong look for solutions. Again, I think if they had been actively holding meetings with all staff, they could have generated solutions to some of the problems. Maybe someone would have said, "Hey, I think there's power over at the cancer center!" Let's move some of these patients over there!" At least everyone would have had a better understanding of how the evacuation process would work. 5. DON'T BE AFRAID TO SPEAK UP IF YOU SEE SOMETHING YOU DON'T AGREE WITH!!! I still feel like maybe if just one or two people had forcefully said "no, we are not euthanizing patients. Not gonna happen." Then maybe they would have taken a step back and given this more thought. Even the people who disagreed at Memorial seemed resigned to it. Like there was no choice.

3. Relevance to today. Well, there has certainly been a lot of talk about how race entered into how Katrina was handled. Of course, racial tension is pretty prominent in our news again now. I honestly don't know what to think regarding Katrina. It makes me feel better to think that it was just a huge mess of incompetence and not that the government was slower to respond than if it had been a predominantly white area that had been hit. I honestly don't know what to think. It was just a miserable failure all the way around.

Moosi, you are a saint for all you do for your MIL. Caregiving is difficult at best, even when you have an easy patient. You are a truly a good person.

Fair, that is an interesting comment that your friend made about FEMA. And it kind of scares the shit out of me. It makes me wonder if we are prepared at all for a big catastrophe. Hmm.....maybe I should start watching Doomsday Preppers. Kidding.......sort of.

[rangersma1]

Now that they are gone, I think I'd like to have them back. I'm a slow learner but probably would like the opportunity to answer right back instead of waiting till the end of the thread.

[chalkitup]

I kind of like the boxes too. I'll fully admit to being an unherdable cat.

I usually check this later in the day, and there are so many posts. I can't remember who said something I liked (or didn't like for that matter) so I just resort to "Someone said..." in my post. I'm way too lazy to keep an pen and paper and jot down notes while I'm reading.

But, really, I'm fine with whatever. I'm a cat, but I'm also easy.

[moosishun]

I will page becca and get them back!

Hey, I just found an interesting quote from the DA - "Good people shouldn't necessarily be charged for the bad things they did in a crisis. "

Huh.

[gemster]

Becca to the rescue as I'd forgotten how to turn the comments on and off

With regards to charges I think A LOT people involved in this cluster should have been charged but I was thinking more along the lines of medical negligence - which I'm not sure is even an option in the US/Louisiana. I don't think any of them were murderers and I'm not sure I'm in favour of custodial sentences for any of them. I guess I just wanted something to be done or said which legally stated that none of this was acceptable and cannot happen again.

I remember reading later in the book that at the time the Louisiana justice system was absolutely overwhelmed and violent criminals, drug dealers etc were going free because they weren't being processed or charged in time - so I can see why they didn't want to take this on. But I'm wondering if the federal justice system could have got involved? But I've no idea how any of this works with regards to state v federal.

[gemster]

And on to today's questions:

1. We live in the era of Facebook, Twitter, and other forms of social media. Do you thing events would have played out differently at Memorial if cell phones and social
media had been as prevalent in 2005? In what way?
I don't think it would have made a huge amount of difference, other than to possibly make things worse by rumour mongering and stirring up more panic.

2. What lessons, if any, were learned from the hospital disaster at Memorial?
Agreeing with everything coffee queen has said about this and Charity should be (and hopefully is) used as an example of how to deal with a similar situation in the future.

3. Does this book have any relevance to the state of things in the United States today
Not qualified to comment on this

[chalkitup]

I don't know if social media would have made things better or worse, honestly. I remember watching news from the Superdome and seeing the chaos, but I didn't have access 24/7 because once I left my house in the morning, I didn't really see it until the evening. There was internet, obviously, but it was pre smart phone (at least for me), so I wasn't checking in all day like I can now. So, I think facebook/social media would add to the general awareness, but probably would have included a lot more inaccurate information and maybe made things even more of a clusterfuck.

I hope that a lot of lessons have been learned, but like anything, learning a lesson and actually applying the lesson are two different things. I don't know that hospitals and cities in general magically have more money and better management and leadership to implement all of the things that should have been done before this even happened. Yes, they know things that could help and could keep things under control, but do they have the infrastructure to make it happen?

As far as relevance to today, it seems like there is a lot of finger pointing and deflection as to where the original problem started. I think that's because no one wants to take full responsibility, but also no one can. There is no one thing that would have made this situation not have happened. So, in that regard, I think it's similar. There's still a lot of finger pointing and blame on all sides trying to say why the country is in the hole, or how we can "make America great again" (barf) But the truth is, there has been systematic failure on a lot of levels for a long time, so there's no easy fix. No matter who becomes president, or is elected to Congress, or becomes a Supreme Court Justice, nothing will change unless people can actual sit down and address the real problems. I try not to be cynical (sort of), but I don't know that that is going to happen anytime soon. I wouldn't even begin to know where to start.

[maryenne]

1. There were phones in 2005. I had a Blackberry, remember them? But even if there had been Twitter, etc., there was no electricity to keep things charged up. I do think it would have made a difference though if they did have access to social media, because people everywhere would have known what was happening. The world was aware of Arab Spring because of Twitter.
2. I think a huge number of lessons were learned, including about triage and how hospitals should be prepared for disasters. The biggest shock to me is how unprepared these hospitals were.
3. I do worry about how far we've really come in these past 11 years. It seems like we've gone backwards in some respects, so I don't know if things would be any better after a disaster like Katrina.

[coffeequeen63]

All very good points, Chalk. I think you are right that even looking at how badly things were handled at Memorial might not mean that things will be better next time. I'd like to know if all the hospitals have moved their generators to higher floors for example. It seems like after a disaster there is all this motivation to be better prepared. Then we go for awhile with no big problems and complacency slips in again. And the companies that own the hospitals probably balk at the expense of moving generators etc.

And I agree with the finger pointing and blame thing too. As I recall, the governor was pointing fingers at the mayor, the mayor was blaming the governor, everyone was blaming FEMA. There was enough blame to go around for sure. And yes, that finger pointing and blaming is certainly prevelant with today's issues as well.

[moosishun]

Well, I just finished the whole thing!

I think it all comes down to the value doctors place on human beings. The essence of a team who would work together to solve problems is really important, and I think this was evident at Charity and also in the hospital in New York during Sandy. There really was no team working together at Memorial and the team could have pooled together all kinds of solutions.

I am sorry that Dr. Thiele and Dr. Pou were considered leaders because they were not. They could have been part of a good team, but the problem with the two of them was that they did wield a bit of power and were not willing to work as a unified team.

And I really dislike the both of them. I wonder how they reacted to this book!

[Deleted]

Looking in here for that monkey.

[moosishun]

How interesting that Tenet got rid of all of their hospitals in NO after this thing. It looks like their other hospital didn't fare that much better either. It was infuriating to hear about all these uppity-ups being on vacation during all of this.

[moosishun]

Today is Friday! Last day for this particular questioning but that is not to stop us from continuing the discussion as more peeps read this book!

DAY 5 QUESTIONS

1. Why hasn't Sheri Fink gotten her pants sued off? My gosh, she pretty much laid out a case for reopening the case since murder charges never have a deadline.

2. What did you think about the legal process on this thing and who were your favorite/less-favorite characters?

3. How about the epilogue and do you think that what happened at Memorial influenced other actions in similar situations?

and for Monkey:

4. How's about that writing style?

And any other thoughts or questions you might have!  This was a good book to read and I'm glad I read it.

[moosishun]

I was also going to say that Dr. Pou really was not seen in a good light by Sheri at the end either. She made mis-statements factually and got nailed to the wall about them in this book. I looked at pictures of her and there are not any pictures of her husband. Did you know that her lawyer has a webpage about the case as well?

[OwlGreen68]

The lawyer has a web page about the case?? Wow.

I've been MIA due to work, sorry. I agree with a lot of the points that have been made previously so I'm going to free form here -

No one was prepared for something of this scale. Honestly, I'm not even sure you can FULLY prepare for an event that huge, but they didn't try too hard to come up with contingencies in advance.

It's part of American society to turn away from the sickest and neediest, it seems. We've historically been so focused on youth and vitality and mobility it's as if we can't comprehend someone else's vulnerability (at times. of course there are other times when we show compassion). So it's not a huge surprise to see that, once they were left with only the sickest patients - due to their flawed triage - those patients were devalued even further and viewed as a burden.

I should have known what was going to happen in the book when Fink used the pets' euthanasia as foreshadowing.

I think the remaining staff was pretty desperate by the point they were using the meds to cause their patients' deaths. It sounded like the other hospital had a better culture in place - team work, turning towards each other instead of away, etc. That kind of invisible structure works wonders at preventing things from falling to pieces.

I believe in assisted suicide and think it's as merciful as putting a pet down, but here - as others have said - the DNRs should not have been viewed as "kill me now" signs.

I dunno. This was such a sad book. Every bad decision snowballed into the next one.

[Deleted]

Moosi, I'm not sure what you mean about the author and a lawsuit. Why would she get sued?

[moosishun]

In her and her lawyer's websites, they are very critical of the book. And since Sheri F. really makes things look like she could definitely be brought up on charges, could she not be sued for libel?

[moosishun]

And yes, I stalked her and was wondering if her husband and her stayed married. This is the "National Enquirer" part of me.

Cheap gossip.

Lurid headlines.

Me.

[honeybzzzs]

I've been following along and have enjoyed the comments and insights everyone has given.

There is so much to discuss and think about. I have gone to YouTube and watched news stories about this subject, re-read parts of the book, and it still haunts me about how terribly wrong everything went.
And wasn't there a part where patients from the hospital had been dumped on the side of the road? Remember that part where people were camped in the medians...weren't some of the "healthier" patients placed there too? (We are out camping now and I don't have my book to look it up)

Thank you for such a thoughtful discussion.

[Deleted]

Oh, gotcha Moosi.

[moosishun]

Yes, people had been flown/boated to places and dropped off with the hope that somebody would be on the other end picking them up. I believe that was probably part of the defense - that the very sick would have died anyway, but one fellow who looked pretty dire (and was mistaken for dead at first) went through all of that and still lived.

There was also the "hospitalized dropping off point" that was way under-manned with physicians and nurses.

The question still is "was that a good enough defense to euthanize them then and there?"

[gemster]

I did wonder if anyone had or would take action against Sheri Fink, not just Pou and the nurses, but Cook, Thiele and others that she completely 'outed'. But I don't know how libel charges work here never mind in the US. The US is generally more litigious (is that the right word??) so yes I did think about her being sued, in fact I intended to google but forgot I'll see if I can find her lawyer's web page.

I didn't follow the legal process that well as it's very unfamiliar to me, the little I do know comes straight from Law and Order. I'd forgotten about the process varying between states until someone mentioned it here and I still don't understand when (if?) the main federal government justice system can take over from individual states. I now know all about states rights in the 1860s but not so much in the 21st century!

I don't think I had a favourite character, none of them really covered themselves in glory.

I can't remember the epilogue very well I'll have to re-read it I read the book so fast I was on information overload by then.

Writing Style: There was a lot of unnecessary waffle in the book IMO, I skipped anything that seemed repetitive or going off at a tangent - there were parts where I thought I'd lost my place and was re-reading the same passage again but it was actually Fink repeating herself. But I didn't think it was THAT bad just could have done with some better editing.