|
Post by honeybzzzs on Jul 17, 2016 19:15:25 GMT -5
Good Day Book Clubbers.
Moos is busy Monday, so I volunteered to get us started.
I'm on the West Coast so I'll post this tonight. That way you Early Bird East Coasters can get started with the discussion and get us rolling. Moos has agreed to take the reins back on Tuesday.
I have never done a Book Club before. Please bare with me. I'll just post some easy questions from the Internet to get us going.
1- Are you glad you read Five Days at Memorial?
2- Did you know anything about what happened at hospitals in the New Orleans area before reading the book?
3- To understand the pressure doctors and nurses faced, readers need to know exactly what it felt like to be trapped in a sweltering hospital in a city facing chaos. Do you think the author does a good job in recreating those conditions?
|
|
|
Post by OwlGreen68 on Jul 17, 2016 19:58:43 GMT -5
Good Day Book Clubbers. Moos is busy Monday, so I volunteered to get us started. I'm on the West Coast so I'll post this tonight. That way you Early Bird East Coasters can get started with the discussion and get us rolling. Moos has agreed to take the reins back on Tuesday. I have never done a Book Club before. Please bare with me. I'll just post some easy questions from the Internet to get us going. 1- Are you glad you read Five Days at Memorial? 2- Did you know anything about what happened at hospitals in the New Orleans area before reading the book? 3- To understand the pressure doctors and nurses faced, readers need to know exactly what it felt like to be trapped in a sweltering hospital in a city facing chaos. Do you think the author does a good job in recreating those conditions? If I bare with you, do I have to get all the way nekkid? I'm going to jot a few things down since I don't know yet if I can access this page at work. I'm not sure I'm glad I read it, but I'm always glad to learn things I hadn't known. Truthfully, I was feeling a bit wounded from the intensity of the story yesterday. So that sort of answers the last question - I thought she went into great detail explaining how desperate conditions were at Memorial. She kept us readers a bit removed from it, though, so I didn't feel as if I had experienced it (like I did when I read All The Light We Cannot See) but it made me admire the medical staff for continuing to work in such extremes.
|
|
maryenne
This space for rent
Posts: 13,020
|
Post by maryenne on Jul 17, 2016 20:39:26 GMT -5
I'm not finished with it yet - it's so loooooong and I've been reading it all weekend. But I am into it and will finish it.
(1) I am glad that I'm reading it because (2) I did not know about what happened in this New Orleans hospital. (3) I thought she did a fairly good job depicting the conditions, although her map was too small and I couldn't figure out where things were in the hospital. Her writing is very matter-of-fact and so, like Owl said, she kept us a bit removed. I found myself thinking how the book might have been different had Eric Larson written it or the person who wrote The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks.
Many years ago I worked in the public relations/media relations department of a large hospital in Miami. Throughout the seven years I worked there, I had the opportunity to attend a lot of workshops and lectures about ethics and end-of-life issues. I learned about Brompton's Cocktail which was a mixture of morphine and cocaine and was used to alleviate pain in advanced-stage cancer patients. It was purported to allow a patient to be pain-free and yet alert so they could spend their final days awake and conversing with their families. My understanding was that it was also used to hasten death.
|
|
|
Post by balancedlife on Jul 17, 2016 21:07:45 GMT -5
1- Are you glad you read Five Days at Memorial?
2- Did you know anything about what happened at hospitals in the New Orleans area before reading the book?
3- To understand the pressure doctors and nurses faced, readers need to know exactly what it felt like to be trapped in a sweltering hospital in a city facing chaos. Do you think the author does a good job in recreating those conditions?
1. I am less glad and maybe more proud that I read this book. I tend to read breezy murder mysteries and the Book Club has broadened my mind a lot.
2. I really didn't know much about the hospitals and had always kind of wondered, since I knew a fair amount about the Katrina horrors in general. I guess I had thought that the hospitals would have been much better prepared -- much, much better prepared. It shocked the hell out of me to hear how many hospitals had vital mechanical equipment in the damned BASEMENT! In a city which was pretty much vulnerable to flooding at any given moment!
3. I felt that she did a credible job of getting me into the place and time. Not a great job, but fairly good. A bit of her journalistic distance kept me from really "being there." I think that attitude served her much better in the second half of the book when she was dealing with the legal stuff.
During the first section of the book, I did feel sorry for the terrible position the staff and patients found themselves, but, man, there were so very many poor and rushed decisions made. Especially when one reads later on about other places who managed to operate in a whole different way!
|
|
MonkeyTwirl
This space for rent
Dance dance dance
Posts: 26,266
|
Post by MonkeyTwirl on Jul 18, 2016 1:22:04 GMT -5
I have found it a difficult yet compelling read. I am glad I read it. I'm not done, but intend to finish it. Before this, I did not know what happened there. I thought the author did a good job of helping me understand the conditions the staff were in. I very much appreciated seeing into the minds of medical professionals - their love and care for their patients impressed me. I also appreciate learning about medical ethics - different viewpoints, evolution, history.
I thought editing was needed. It is a complex story she took on. But I can't help thinking what Krakauer could have done with the story.
|
|
|
Post by gemster on Jul 18, 2016 5:06:06 GMT -5
Morning all I was resistant to this one as I dislike anything medical or illness related but I ended up finding it a compelling and interesting read - just as well seeing as I only left myself two days to read it I did skim a lot due to time pressure but there seemed to be quite a lot of waffle that wasn't really relevant to the story so I don't think I have missed anything vital. I will re-read as we discuss though. I knew absolutely nothing about New Orleans hospitals, I had never heard of Memorial and knew very very little about Hurricane Katrina full stop (for those who don't know I'm in the UK). I had heard of it but before this book I would have been hard pressed to say exactly when or where it had occurred. I had absolutely NO IDEA how bad Katrina was, I think over here we are always hearing about hurricanes in other parts of the world but because they don't affect us directly they don't really stick in the mind. I thought maybe it was just me as I'm not a news watcher but did a quick survey at work and no-one here knows much about Katrina other than in the vaguest terms. I think the author did a fairly good job recreating the conditions the staff were in, I for one was glad she kept it pretty factual as I am not sure if I would want to be 'immersed' too much in this particular story I didn't really want to 'be there'. Like Monkey says, I did enjoy seeing into the minds of the staff and I did appreciate what a terrible position they found themselves in.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2016 6:02:46 GMT -5
Good Morning, Book Club.
I followed the news of Katrina pretty closely during the event. But, I must have lost track because I did not remember the issues with euthanization of the these patients (can you see which side of the issue I fall on, there)?
I was glad that I read it although it was an emotional roller coaster for me. Having done caregiving for my mom, it really struck a chord with me. I related most to the woman who would not leave her mother and was ultimately ordered to leave. It made me sick.
Further, I lost an infant son and also in the case of my mother, I reluctantly agreed to let them admininster morphine. (I do understand that this is not the same as the combined meds in the book.). At the times, the docs explained that morphine would hasten the death but would make them more comfortable. I really struggled with the hastening death part of the equation. This book brought that emotion back like a flood. Still glad that I read it. But, wow did it impact me!
I thought the author did an excellent job of researching and writing the book. My only negative observation is that, while I understand why, I struggled with the repetitive detail in the beginning as she described the hospital conditions. I kept thinking, "Good Lord, I live in TX. I know what hot is. You don't have to tell me 52 times." However, in the legal portion of the book, I didn't feel that way. I appreciated the full on detail.
So glad we won't lose our book club. Have a good day, all.
|
|
|
Post by coffeequeen63 on Jul 18, 2016 7:11:44 GMT -5
Good morning Book Club!
I am glad I read this book even though it was a long and sometimes difficult read. I learned a lot and it made me wonder if my city is prepared for a disaster. The response to Katrina was such a colossal fuckup from the federal government on down to the local officials. I hope our cities are better prepared. But I have my doubts.
So, I was working as an ICU nurse at the time of Katrina, but nowhere near New Orleans. I was loosely following along with the legal proceedings at the time. I was one of the medical people that was absolutely horrified that the doc and nurses had been charged. At the time, I wholeheartedly believed that they had no option and that all the patients were suffering and close to death. Now I have a different perspective. I certainly don't think that was the case with Emmett Everett. Fairazz, I'm so sorry for the loss of your mom and son. I hope that I don't say anything to cause you pain. I want to note that as an ICU nurse, I have administered morphine to patients when the family has decided to "let their loved one go" and remove life support. No one wants to watch the awful agonal breathing as their family passes. So I absolutely believe in comfort care. I just find myself conflicted on what I had thought happened at Memorial and then reading how things really went down.
As others mentioned, I felt a bit removed from the depiction of the conditions. To be honest, I thought it had been worse than it actually was. I thought they were out of water and meds which they were not. I don't think I felt the conditions warranted the absolute hopelessness that the staff seemed to have fallen into, if that makes sense.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2016 7:22:25 GMT -5
Coffee, I wondered about mentioning those things because I don't want to impede the discussion. It's just that they were a huge part of my reaction to the book. So, talk away. It's been many years since my son so not a fresh wound.
Also, I did recognize the heath care workers dilemma. The reports of violence outside were so exaggerated, they were very fearful for themselves and others. I sympathized but ultimately came down on the side of feeling they were outside of the law.
|
|
Cyn
This space for rent
Posts: 31,520
|
Post by Cyn on Jul 18, 2016 9:09:40 GMT -5
I'm popping in here. After reading your posts, I'm glad I decided to skip this one. Between hospital horror stories from my sis who's a PT, and going through my Mom's end of life struggles and hospitalizations a few years ago I know this book would have really gotten to me. I am so glad Book Club made it through the Rapturing, even though it hasn't quite happened yet. I'll see you all next month.
|
|
|
Post by mochwr1 on Jul 18, 2016 9:33:58 GMT -5
My reaction is pretty similar to what Balanced said.
I am glad a read Five Days, I gravitate to murder mysteries and I need to expand my nonfiction reading.
I had no idea what happened at the hospitals in NO at the time. I was amazed at the lack of preparedness and communication on every level of responsibility.
With the author's factual writing style I did think she did a good job. I understand why the staff made the really poor choices they made but didn't feel like I was immersed in the decisions.
Thanks to the poster who nominated the book!
|
|
|
Post by balancedlife on Jul 18, 2016 10:07:15 GMT -5
It keeps passing through my mind that things might have played out differently if their triage had been based on evacuating the most ill first. Which the author pointed out isn't the only way to approach such a situation, but seems to be kind of the usual way to go these days. Maybe the top staff wouldn't have felt so pressured and frantic. In fact, maybe then the top dogs would have felt they could consult with the rest of the staff, instead of kind of announcing decisions. In the second half of the book, there was one hospital which wasn't in great shape either, but managed to meet together and it really sounded to me like a much better way to go with a much better result.
|
|
|
Post by balancedlife on Jul 18, 2016 10:14:30 GMT -5
And I can't hold it in any longer!
How DARE those CEO-types wander over to the Cancer Institute place and nap and drink tea and watch TV!?!
The author just kind of glosses over the fact, but this made me wild with anger. Since these bastards knew that that place had some power, why was there no attempt made to coordinate with Memorial? Was I reading too quickly? Did I miss something?
|
|
|
Post by balancedlife on Jul 18, 2016 10:16:31 GMT -5
Oh, my! I didn't get that the font would be quite so large. Sorry about yelling my head off. Oh, dear. I clearly have much to learn about how things work here. Sorry, sorry, sorry. I go away now to do some deep, calming breathing. You may wish to do the same.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2016 10:27:55 GMT -5
Balanced, I can't find a like button on Tapatalk. I completely agree with you regarding the power at the Cancer Center. Ugh. I was so angry.
|
|
|
Post by coffeequeen63 on Jul 18, 2016 10:33:38 GMT -5
Exactly, Balanced!!! That pissed me off too! Yell away!!
|
|
|
Post by gemster on Jul 18, 2016 10:54:17 GMT -5
I agree that things seemed to be mismanaged at Memorial compared to some other hospitals - they mentioned one (Baptist?) where they evacuated the sickest first and everyone survived. But then again there were other hospitals and nursing homes etc where things were almost as bad as Memorial. But I guess it's hard for anyone to know how they would react in such a situation and you can have processes and procedures coming out of your ears about what you 'should' do but that doesn't always mean much IRL when the shit hits the fan.
I do remember reading about the cancer centre and thinking that was odd but because I'd skimmed a lot I thought I'd maybe got confused with the layout and who/what was where.
Fair I really admire you too for being able to read this book, I can imagine how close to home it must feel for you - and I can understand why others who have been through their own traumatic experiences did not want to read it.
I am terribly terribly squeamish about illness and medical stuff for no real reason, my Dad was only in the hospital for a couple of weeks and passed away peacefully in his sleep but it's just one of those things that makes very anxious and fearful.
Coffee I think your perspective will be great to have on this one.
|
|
|
Post by moosishun on Jul 18, 2016 10:56:05 GMT -5
I will have this book read by Wednesday, I am sure. Ha! Anyhow, I have a few minutes to read and such.
I find this book to be an "important read" for me but I am sure I am just going to suffer through things that will make me want to shoot someone(s) many times. I am already infuriated at people that make decisions for mass amounts of people and totally SCREW IT UP. I have decided that I should just proffer Big Face's name up for election to just about any position and she would do a better job.
|
|
|
Post by chalkitup on Jul 18, 2016 11:49:13 GMT -5
I'm glad I read the book in the sense that it helps me to be more informed about what is really happening apart from my little corner of the world. I'm working to expand my views and really see beyond my mostly white, suburban, pretty easy life. I do remember Hurricane Katrina and being so outraged that everything that could have possibly gone wrong or been mishandled, did happen. It was awful to watch. But, it also seemed far removed from my twenty something self.
I don't really remember much coverage of the hospitals on the news. I've never been a big TV watcher, and I don't feel like the 24 hour media cycle was quite as prevalent then. Now, since NPR is pretty much the only thing I listen to in my car, I would probably remember more details.
It seemed to me that there was a decent (not great) balance between sharing some of the personal stories, but not getting too emotionally involved. Someone mentioned journalistic distance, and I think that sums it up. I cared about the stories, but because I wasn't watching it on the news, or really getting to know the characters, I was able to distance myself a little and keep reading. Had it been written more like a memoir or from a first person account, I think I would have gotten more emotionally invested and would have had more difficulty actually reading it. (I'm about 60% done according to Kindle.)
I was also so pissed about the admins going over to the cancer center. I'd like to think I could never be so callous. But, it's so hard to know what/how people will react when they are faced with overwhelming stress and fear. That's the part that I keep going back to. I just can't imagine having to make any kind of rational decision under that much pressure.
|
|
|
Post by mochwr1 on Jul 18, 2016 11:58:26 GMT -5
I have no experience in the medical field and the decisions to be made regarding evacuating patients. It boggled my mind that the sickest patients were not taken out first.
Go right ahead and yell about the head honchos and the cancer center! I find it despicable that they were having their ease and comfort and the sickest patients, or any patient for that matter were suffering!
|
|
|
Post by rhubarbarian on Jul 18, 2016 12:02:23 GMT -5
I didn't read the book and am not sure I even could, but being so close to Louisiana, I followed the news of Katrina and the hospitals pretty closely. When I heard the criticism of medical people, I thought "I'm not sure how fully "civilians" appreciate how much lack of sleep, combined with stress can adversely impact decision making." We even got a few of the evacuated patients transferred to our hospitals. We started paying a lot closer attention to disaster planning after that.
I did not know about the head honchos going to the cancer center. They should have been on the front lines with the doctors and nurses.
|
|
|
Post by coffeequeen63 on Jul 18, 2016 12:12:41 GMT -5
Agreed, Rhubarbarian. Lack of sleep was huge in some of the poor decisions that were made. I think that's why the "successful" hospital had better outcomes. They kept night shift/day shift schedules so staff were actually sleeping.Memorial just seemed to be in chaos mode from early on.
But I realize I probably came across as judgy in my first thread. I understand that this was an unprecedented disaster and I don't presume to know how I would have dealt with it. I'm thankful that I was not in that situation.
|
|
|
Post by mochwr1 on Jul 18, 2016 12:19:02 GMT -5
I agree that the adverse conditions made decision making next to impossible.
I think if they had moved the sickest first the staff would not have had to make the final decisions on them.
Do I remember correctly that the author said the CEO mentioned the cancer ctr visits in a cavalier manner?
|
|
MonkeyTwirl
This space for rent
Dance dance dance
Posts: 26,266
|
Post by MonkeyTwirl on Jul 18, 2016 12:21:26 GMT -5
And I can't hold it in any longer! How DARE those CEO-types wander over to the Cancer Institute place and nap and drink tea and watch TV!?!The author just kind of glosses over the fact, but this made me wild with anger. Since these bastards knew that that place had some power, why was there no attempt made to coordinate with Memorial? Was I reading too quickly? Did I miss something? Thank you for bringing that up. I wanted to discuss it here. I thought this was a major part of the story, yet the author did not mention it 'til well into the book, after she was done narrating the events at Memorial and has moved on to the legal issues afterwards. This confused me greatly. She mentions it like an afterthought, but it seems super extra major to me. How could the execs be so clueless? Didn't the staff see the lights at the Cancer Institute and know there was power? Power was out everywhere else. Wouldn't it be obvious? And even if it wasn't, wouldn't there have been several people on staff who found out, and then word would get around, and DUH, let's move patients there! I can't wrap my head around this part of the story, and the author just totally shoved it aside like it was a footnote. No staff ever mentions it? Can anyone help me understand this?
|
|
|
Post by balancedlife on Jul 18, 2016 12:27:18 GMT -5
So many well-reasoned and thought-provoking posts here! It will be very interesting to hear what y'all think about the legal portion of the book. If the second half changes anyone's thoughts or if it solidifies your opinions.
|
|