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Post by peachymom1 on Dec 4, 2016 1:13:13 GMT -5
What’s on your mind – how to make kugel? This week’s Torah reading? Life goals? Prayer? We are all engaged in weight loss/weight maintenance journeys and we are all Jewish or at least interested in Judaism. We like to eat, we like to discuss. It is our goal here to provide each other support on our journeys, to share experiences, to call on our rich cultural heritage and texts, and to help each other grow spiritually.
Some of us take weekly turns starting the thread:
Angelika
Holly
Lee
Louise
Lynne
Peachy
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Post by peachymom1 on Dec 4, 2016 1:15:05 GMT -5
Good morning everyone, and shavua tov! I’d like to backtrack a bit to last week’s Torah portion, Toledot. This is where Rebecca, who has been barren for 20 years, finally conceives and has twins. Rebecca has a difficult pregnancy and asks God why. God replies as follows (Gen. 25:23):
“Two nations are in your womb, two separate peoples shall issue from your body; one people shall be mightier than the other, and the older shall serve the younger.”
I have some questions about this and would like to know what you think.
First, why did God give this information to Rebecca? Was this supposed to make it easier for her to tolerate the remainder of the pregnancy? Surely if God had just said, “Two nations [or why not leave it at ‘babies?’] are in your womb,” that would have been explanation enough. Consider these points:
• In a time when tribal identity defined you, what did it mean to Rebecca that she would be the mother of two separate peoples? How would you feel to hear such news in today’s world? Would you be afraid of your children’s differences or confident that separate identities can respect each other?
• In a time when tribal affairs were often settled by force, what did it mean to hear from God’s own mouth that one people would be mightier than the other? How would you feel about this news today?
• In a time when birth order carried particular importance in the family, what did it mean to hear that the older would serve the younger? Do you think birth order should matter so much in today’s world?
If you were Rebecca, how do you think you would react to God’s pronouncements? And would you tell your husband or partner what God said? I can’t imagine not sharing such an experience with my husband, but the text doesn’t say that Rebecca mentioned it to Isaac at all. Does this strike you as odd?
Anybody have any answers, comments, reactions, etc.?
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lee058
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Post by lee058 on Dec 4, 2016 6:20:27 GMT -5
Good morning everybody. Hope you are all well today. Re today's topic: What came to my mind was my own experience before DS was born. I also had a difficult pregnancy. It was made worse because I had been expecting an easy one; my mom had always told me how wonderful she felt when she was pregnant, so I expected the same thing. She also told me what an easy baby I was, and my DS had colic. I didn't sleep for three solid months, and had disrupted sleep for many months after that, too. It was rough!
If God had personally talked to me and told me that everything was going to be okay, it would have helped a lot!
As for Rebecca, she must have felt awful. I bet she was sorry she asked.
Anyway, I'll be back later. Have a peaceful day, Lee
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Post by momof2 on Dec 4, 2016 8:08:04 GMT -5
Boker Tov!
Very interesting topic.
I was nervous while pregnant with DS, as my sister was pregnant at the same time, but she suffered a miscarriage around week 12-13. I was paranoid about my own baby, then had placenta previa. At least with that I had more frequent ultrasounds. Hearing the faith of the babies, might have helped put her mind at ease.
We are headed to San Diego. Visiting the grandparents for a full week. Nervous about the drive, bringing a potty with for 3 year old emergency stops. DH and I (with DS) are having a night away. Looking forward to the visit, just not the driving.
Better get myself ready, before DS followed by DD. Need to make sure she isn't rushed, so hopefully she'll poop before we go. Been potty training for 5 months now. She's been doing very well. But on Thanksgiving weekend saw her cousin, same age, poop in her panties so on Monday she did that 3 times! Thankfully she hasn't had an accident since.
Rambling on.
Holly, could you email me? . Can't find your email on my kindle. Thank you.
Have a great Sunday.
Tamara
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Post by hollygail on Dec 4, 2016 10:42:04 GMT -5
Oy! Pregnancy... I too had an easy pregnancy and an easy infant (is that why I stopped at one?). In the time of the patriarchs and matriarchs, birth order mattered, as it did for millennia afterward (and I think it still does in some societies). So I don't think it's fair to compare with modern-day life; just because my sister is the first-born and I'm the second has no bearing either on our "place" in life nor with inheritance laws (et al) doesn't mean it shouldn't have had in previous millennia in another society.
When I ask God something, I really do prefer to receive a response, so I have no problem whatever that Rebecca asked, nor that she received an answer. I never really questioned why God would say two nations rather than something easy like "twins" (or "babies" to use your word, Peachy). But that the older would serve the younger? Oy! That must have been hard for Rebecca to hear... unless, of course, she took into account that Isaac had an older brother, absent from the story for quite some time now... From our vantage point so far later in history, it's one of those "family" things in a way. Isaac was younger than Ishmael, Jacob younger than Esau...
As for telling one's husband, when Samson's mother learns she's going to become pregnant, she tells her husband who asks for the messenger to return so he can ask something more. I imagine most wives would tell their husbands news of this type. And just because I teach this stuff, I'm going to throw one additional monkey wrench into the mix: just because we don't read that Rebecca told Isaac doesn't necessarily mean that she didn't tell him. We could write our own midrash based on her telling him and his response, ladies...
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Post by savtele on Dec 4, 2016 11:06:57 GMT -5
Boker Tov All! Interesting topic - one always wonders how a "favorite" child is chosen. Certainly being told by God that the older will serve the younger would make her inclined to favor the younger one. Since her conversation with God is not related to Jacob, it is natural for him to be drawn more to his elder son, especially if he notices that his wife favors the younger one. Even if she HAD told him, would he have believed her?
I've wondered about determinism vs. nurture. She had been told that "2 nations are in your womb" - there will be a separation between your 2 sons at some point! So - Esav is born & goes off hunting in the hills with his father, & later, no doubt, by himself. He does "guy" things. Jacob stays home with mom, learns how to cook (he was, after all, able to turn a kid into "wild" meat - most people who hunt work at taking the gaminess out of meat!) He learns to tend the flocks, & how to manipulate the flocks to get the type of young he wants. "Women's" things. By the time they were young men, the separation was almost complete - their negotiation over a bowl of stew shows a lack of respect for one another. They may have been born with certain opposite tendencies, but their upbringing worked to accentuate rather than minimize that.
We are expecting icy weather today, & through week. My woodpile is ready, pantry is well-stocked & studded tires are on the cars. There are paper books, in case the power goes out. With all this prep, no doubt the storm will miss us!
Have a good day ladies!
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Post by gazelle18 on Dec 4, 2016 11:08:05 GMT -5
Well remember, this is the Torah, not the New York Times. Do we know what was ACTUALLY said, and how? But if we are to take the conversation literally, I would say that God chose to warn the suffering mom that she had a load of responsibility, and that important things were ahead for her descendants.
Sometimes I wonder if birth order should matter. In the old days, in England, for example, the oldest son would inherit the estate, and every other sibling had to find his or her own way. It certainly seems unfair; however, you could argue method prevented the parents from "playing favorites." The law provided the answer and that was that.
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Post by happysavta on Dec 4, 2016 13:55:31 GMT -5
Rebecca asks God a question and God answered? Really? I think this very manipulative woman made up that business about God speaking to her much later, not during pregnancy, to justify her actions in helping his Jacob cheat Esau and lie to his father. I wouldn't believe anything she says. That's a phony-baloney cover story, I think.
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Post by happysavta on Dec 4, 2016 14:01:29 GMT -5
Birth order determines how much attention a child can get from his parents and how much sharing he has to do with his siblings over food, clothing, toys, and how many chores are expected of him as well as shouldering responsibilities in the family team. It's still significant today, I think.
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Post by happysavta on Dec 4, 2016 14:13:57 GMT -5
Pregnancies were always easy for me, if you take out the morning sickness, the bladder problems, the fatigue, the worry, the difficulty sleeping and the 9th month which is longer than the other 8 months combined. I usually worked right up to the end and took care of the other kids, although I let the housework deteriorate into a sorry state. The first couple of weeks with a newborn - that was much rougher than the pregnancies; I confess to being a rotten human being when I am sleep deprived. Sleep deprivation makes me miserable, and I would share my misery and spread it around to anyone in my path. Nowadays, women routinely hire help during the day and night nannies as well, so they stay sane.
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Post by peachymom1 on Dec 4, 2016 18:48:23 GMT -5
To address Frieda's points:
First of all, Rebecca comes from a family of known manipulators, as we'll see from her brother Laban in this week's Torah portion. And she does help her favorite son lie and steal, so I'd agree that yes, she's a manipulative woman. Whether she was informed in advance or not, or whether she made up the whole thing in her head, she still acted dishonestly, and I for one do not consider Rebecca to be a person of good character. Surely if God intended Jacob to be the one who ended up heading the tribe, in spite of birth order (which is what the text itself indicates), then God did not need a conniving mother and son to make it so. In my opinion, a truly loving mother, armed with such knowledge, would take as much care to bolster the other boy and help him find his place in the world, which Rebecca does not. So although many commentaries laud Rebecca for her devotion to Jacob, to me she gets a big fat zero as a mother for her complete abandonment of Esau.
I agree that birth order can make a difference in how things get done in a family. But I believe it can be done fairly, if we take the time to think about it and make it so. Of course the oldest child has more attention at first, before any siblings come along, but when children are born closely together, especially in the case of twins, there's no reason in this day and age that birth order should determine anything, in my opinion. The oldest of my siblings was less than a year old when the next one was born, so she couldn't possibly remember being the only child, yet my father favors her to this day "because she's the oldest" (his own words). My mother favored the second child until the third one came along, who was born when my father was overseas, so she figured #3 needed special attention because she only had one parent around. This didn't change after Dad came home though, nor when she had #4 (me). Although Mom will deny it from here to the moon and back, #3 has been her favorite ever since, and everyone knows it.
Maybe some women can afford to hire help during the day, and even at night, as you mention, and that's wonderful. But I could never afford anything like that. DD was 2 when my twins were born, and the babies were so small that they didn't sleep through the night until they were 8 months old. And that was just for a five-hour stretch, from 11 p.m. to 4 a.m. So yep, I was sleep-deprived for a long time and stumbled through the days the best I could. Housework? Ha! The floor was cleared and clean so the 2-year-old was safe, but everything else was a blur.
I'm so glad those days are far behind me! :+)
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