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Post by louise on Mar 27, 2017 23:05:16 GMT -5
What’s on your mind — how to make kugel? This week’s Torah reading? Life goals? Prayer? We are all engaged in weight loss/weight maintenance journeys and we are all Jewish or at least interested in Judaism. We like to eat, we like to discuss. It is our goal here to provide each other support on our journeys, to share experiences, to call on our rich cultural heritage and texts, and to help each other grow spiritually.
Some of us take weekly turns starting the thread:
Angelika
Holly
Lee
Louise
Lynne
Peachy
And for those of you who stop by to read this thread without posting — you are certainly welcome to, but you are also welcome to chime in
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Post by louise on Mar 27, 2017 23:06:29 GMT -5
Some of you may have read last month that IKEA in Israel came out with a special catalog for the Haredim. They apparently account for 20% of sales in Israel. There were no women in it. The bookshelves were filled with sets of religious books. The cover shows a man with tzitzit hanging out standing in front of the bookcases perusing the open book in his hands while two little boys play on the floor. Another scene showed the father pouring orange juice for his two little sons at breakfast. No mother in sight. What’s a little weird about these pictures is that in these households the fathers are not typically serving breakfast to their children or minding them at play. So what’s going on?
Today I received an email with a responsum by Rabbi David Golinkin. He is a scholar at the Schechter Institute of Jewish Studies in Jerusalem and is well known for his precise scholarly answers based on traditional texts. We had him him for a scholar-in-residence weekend at my synagogue a couple of years ago. He sums it up:
… none of the rabbinic sources which forbid looking at women, forbid looking at pictures of women. Indeed, when one reads the modern Haredi responsa and books which claim that it is forbidden to look at pictures of women in magazines on television, one can see that these rabbis are grasping at straws (see the Bibliography below).
Rabbi Ovadia Yosef (1920-2013) and Rabbi Moshe Stern (1914-1997) cite stories such as Nedarim 9b about a handsome young man who decided to become a Nazir which would require him to shave his head. He did so as penance for the fact that he once saw his reflection in the water and it increased his yetzer (evil inclination). These rabbis say that this story shows that even a reflection such as a television can lead to hirhur averah, evil thoughts. However, this story (which sounds like the story of Narcissus) is an Aggadah, not a Halakhah. It may teach us not to admire ourselves in a mirror; it has little to say about pictures of women in magazines.
He goes on with many examples and then goes on to point out the very many pictures of women that have decorated our walls and texts throughout the ages, including in ancient haggadot, paintings of Queen Esther sitting next to the king, of Miriam, of Pharaoh talking to the midwives, and so on.
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Post by louise on Mar 27, 2017 23:08:24 GMT -5
He tells us:
“I began to notice the censorship of women from pictures in the early 1980s when I bought illustrated tractates of the Mishnah in Meah Shearim to study with my children. The series is called Mishnayot Me’irot by Avraham Heshin. There are no women at all in these books, including when women are the subject of the Mishnah! For example, Mishnah Sukkah (Jerusalem 1982) talks about a woman taking the lulav from her son or husband and putting it in water on Shabbat (3:15), but the picture shows a Hassidic man putting the lulav in water!
Similarly, I have a booklet entitled Halakhot Meirot by Ehud Rosenberg (Jerusalem, no date) about the laws of heating food based on the book Shemirat Shabbat Kehilkhatah. On almost every page, there is a picture of a man with a black kippah and a beard cooking or heating up food for Shabbat, even though in religious society it is the women who do most of the cooking.
This phenomenon is now standard in the Haredi world”
He goes on to say:
“In the early nineteenth century, Rabbi Moshe Sofer, the Hatam Sofer, borrowed a phrase from the Mishnah (Orlah 3:9 and Kiddushin 38b) and gave it a new meaning: “anything new is forbidden by the Torah”. He did this in order to oppose sermons in German, moving the Bimah, using an organ, abolishing Brit Milah and other radical innovations of the Reform movement at that time. Ironically, the Haredim since then have never had a problem inventing new stringencies which have no basis in Jewish law or history such as: dressing the way that Jews dressed 200 years ago, opposing all secular education, spending ten years or more in a yeshivah, not working for a living, the segregation of women at all public events and on buses, glatt kosher meat, new stringencies every Pesah, demanding that converts accept and observe all of the mitzvot, and eliminating women from all pictures. Thus, ironically, in their struggle against all leniencies in Judaism they invented many, brand new stringencies.”
I apologize if I offend anyone and even more for simplifying the issues – I’m just trying to get some of the basics out. I am bringing it up one, because I thought it was an interesting story but also because to me it shows how tripped up we can get in our mishegas. Not that we don’t get to see this in the news pretty much daily with our current political situation. I certainly can get lost in my own mishegas. I think this, that, and the other thing, and some of these things may be misconceptions that then shape my behavior.
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Post by louise on Mar 27, 2017 23:27:19 GMT -5
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lee058
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Post by lee058 on Mar 28, 2017 1:10:55 GMT -5
Hello and happy middle of the night to you. I woke up a little while ago and used the ice pack on my shoulder. I'll be awake for a bit, so I looked over here to see what was going on, and here I am.
My reaction to the writing above is to, once again, be glad that I do not live in a community like the one described! I would absolutely hate to be restricted and confined like the women in that group, who aren't even allowed to be shown in a catalog photo! I feel that these restrictions denigrate women rather than honoring them. Exclusion is, in my mind, NOT honoring women. I also think it is hypocritical at best to show men doing tasks that are almost always done by women in that community. This makes me mad on the women's behalf. My analysis is that they are saying that any man could take over women's work, while women cannot do men's work (in fact are forbidden to do so). This not only says that women's work is easier than men's, it also says that men's work is more valuable and worthy of being shown to others so it can be emulated. I think that this is propaganda and not healthy for anyone in that community, especially children.
Maybe I am reading too much into these advertisements, but this seems typical of all sorts of anti-female attitudes around the world irregardless of exactly which religion or location they are in.
I'll be back at a more reasonable hour of the morning. Have a peaceful rest of the night, Lee
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Post by hollygail on Mar 28, 2017 1:31:21 GMT -5
I laughed at the story when I read it.
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brgmsn
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Post by brgmsn on Mar 28, 2017 7:41:18 GMT -5
This is the same fringe group who throw rocks at women they feel are not dressed, in their opinion, modestly enough. This is also the group with suicides of young women who either leave the group because of the restrictions or are forced to stay, but either way they live such restricted, unhappy lives they feel they have no options.
They get to choose how they interpret things, as do all rabbis, apparently. Many groups who post things tell the readers to "check with your rabbi" in areas where they are questioned. Everything can be interpreted. But only male rabbis have that power in most Orthodox/religious sections of Judaism.
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Post by gazelle18 on Mar 28, 2017 7:57:09 GMT -5
Wow. I had never heard about the IKEA catalog for Haredim. I think Louise hit the nail on the head. Sometimes we can really get way too caught up in our mishegas. Even my DDIL and DS, who are orthodox, send me photos every day which include DDIL and all their kids, including their daughter. Oh well....
I want to weigh in on Frieda's suggestion of yestedday that we try to comment at the end of each person's posting. I know it's fun fo get such comments, and it makes it seem more like a conversation. I like to give and receive such comments. But sometimes, because of my busy day, I will post at the beginning of the day and not be able to get back to read others' posts until much later, sometimes after the next day's postings have started. Sometimes I end up putting my reactions to what others have said in my own post instead of in the little comment bar. I don't want anyone to think that because I have not made a specific comment to someone's post that I did not read it or like it.
It sure would be nice to have an ACTUAL conversation one day!
Angelika, I hope your pre op went well. We will be thinking of you on Friday.
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Post by savtele on Mar 28, 2017 9:58:01 GMT -5
Boker Tov All! A little bit of a headache today - that's not unusual after the major (bigly) dilation yesterday.
As to "answering" to each post - sometimes it works sometimes not. Sometimes I'm on the computer for several hours, sometimes I'm not back until the next day - I always read everything, and sometimes I comment a day late. Sometimes it gets worked into another day's conversation. Could be days later. I too would enjoy having a "real" conversation sometime - I can see us all now, chanting "Shehecheyanu" upon meeting, dangling in the hammock down by the river, dipping our feet into cool refreshing water, drinking wine & laughing, talking & laughing some more, finally, John coming down to drive us all back up the hill.....
I had to laugh at "anything new is forbidden by the Torah" - so these men will not use antibiotics for an infection (or any other medicine besides herbal?), live in houses without electricity or running water & sewage, and have their wives/servants cook over open fires? How far does one take such a "ban?" Obviously public transportation that doesn't include horses would be forbidden. And business meetings on the 5th or 6th floor of any building will include quite a workout. Most heart attacks will be fatal & no surgeries are allowed....There is an old saying: "too heavenly minded to be any earthly good" - I think that pretty much applies here. As to blotting women out of the picture entirely - good luck to them! We aren't going anywhere - 1/2 the world's population Will Be Acknowledged! Zelophehad's daughters got their inheritance - and it was recorded for all time & posterity. (ok, I'm going to stop now - smoke is starting to come out my ears)
Have a good day ladies!
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Post by savtele on Mar 28, 2017 9:59:50 GMT -5
Lee - I've often wondered how much of your insomnia is pain-driven. I'm hoping this injection works for you!
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lee058
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Post by lee058 on Mar 28, 2017 18:55:40 GMT -5
Hi again everybody. I don't have anything in particular to say, but I wanted to wish everyone a pleasant evening and a peaceful night. See you tomorrow! Lee
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Post by happysavta on Mar 28, 2017 19:25:40 GMT -5
Went to see Beauty and the Beast with DGD 9 y/o. Very well done, nice production. Too scary for the 4 y/o.
Got to the pool again to walk. 3rd day in a row. Legs and back are sore, though.
About today's topic: I think this all goes back to the notion that men cannot restrain their sexual urges if women are around, so the solution is to keep the women at home, or hidden away, out of view, all covered up, etc. It's not just the Haredim either. Monks, Priests, all Muslims across the board. There is another solution to the problem they don't seem to have thought of. How about if men exercise self control and restraint over their sexual urges and their yetzer harah? Let them learn to keep their hands to themselves and control their speech muscles. What's so hard? Are they still cavemen?
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Post by peachymom1 on Mar 28, 2017 20:39:26 GMT -5
I come from the same angle as Frieda. Instead of spending so much time and energy restricting the women, why don't we start holding the men to higher standards of behavior? It's the 21st century, for God's sake. Assuming that men are just half-evolved boors who can't control themselves is an insult to all men. And why should women be the ones who have to be constrained and controlled? It's a power trip, of course, IMO. The men are OK with being seen as testosterone-driven half-animals, in exchange for having unrestrained power in their households. It disgusts me. But then, extremists of all flavors rankle me.
It is absolute nonsense that "anything new is forbidden by the Torah." Utter tripe! Adding more and more restrictions just makes people resent the burden, not love the Torah more. What about "Do not add to the word which I command you, nor diminish from it, to observe the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you" (Deut. 4:2) or "We do not overburden the community" (Ta'anit 14 a-b). If the point of adding restrictions is to give yourself a way to make more brownie points with God, I would argue that there are plenty of mitzvot already in the Torah that are worthy of fulfilling, and there's no need to look for more. But I don't believe in the brownie-points mentality anyway, so that argument is a moot point for me.
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