GDT Bookclub: The Rose Code

[bernelli]

I'm on vacation tomorrow, so I'm kicking this chat off tonight. I look forward to learning what you all thought of this book!  I saw that moosishun has quite a lot to say about it!

Day 1:

Overall -- did you like it? It was a very long book. Did it feel like a slog?  Why did you like/love it, or why did you dislike/hate it?

It's an historical fiction book. What did you think of the characters and the use of them to move the plot along?

[bernelli]

I'll go first (since I cheated and got in line before the line started!)

I really liked this story.
I also knew next to nothing about the code breakers, which, I think helped me like the book more than I would had I known specific details of Bletchley Park, of Prince Philip's previous romance with Osla and of the code breakers. Typically, if I'm reading historical fiction, I'm a total stickler for the liberties an author takes. I want the history to be represented accurately. But not knowing the ins & outs of Bletchley Park, I think that helped me just go with the flow of this story and dive in for enjoyment.

I felt the characters were used well to move the story along. I am still in the googling process, but I learned that Prince Philip really did date an Osla who was a beautiful debutante and she really did work Bletchley Park.

Looking forward to finding out your thoughts about this story!

[corgi]

bernelli, did your copy of the book have an author's note or something at the end? I listened on Audible and there was, I'd guess, about 20 minutes of author's notes. I remember Osla was real, but the author changed her last name in deference to her family. Most of the rest was dates changed a bit & such. The only pertinent parts I remember was that it really did happen that a the pace led to breakdowns and people were committed because of the fear of babbling the country's secrets. It also happened (sounded like more than once) that a couple were married for years before realizing they both had been at Bletchley.

A few years ago, DH tagged along when I went to see one of the Hunger Games movies, despite his not having read the books. Afterward I asked him what he thought of it. He replied it was a strange mix of saving the world, but wait, what about my boyfriend? LOL This book gave me the same vibe at first. I mean, here they're trying to save the world from Nazis, but at the same time drinking and dancing and worrying about their hairstyles. But then, I started thinking about how they offhand mentioned Alan Turing. Men writing the story of Bletchley would focus on the one superman who saved everything, women writing the story would write about a group of people all working together to save everything. Plus, how many of us were working moms, juggling work and family? Just because these women weren't literally in the trenches doesn't mean their story is any less important.

After I got over that conceit, I thoroughly enjoyed the book. I loved how even those these three women were very different they bonded. Even when they were fighting, you knew they still cared about each other. I was really drawn in, and while yes, it was very long, I couldn't put it down.

[sal]

I really liked the story, while I didn't necessarily like any of the main characters, if that makes sense. I didn't hate them, and appreciate that the author did not make them all out to be perfect (or even make one of them out to be so). All three of them had their fairly major faults but I could still find myself rooting for them most of the time. And while I wanted to scream at them all "just TALK to each other and sort this shit out!!" they really couldn't because of their job and so that part of things made the plot actually work.

I really hated Beth's mother though. Visceral hate.

[gemster]

Yes I really enjoyed the book and loved the three characters and the way they interacted even though they were far from perfect, and all the issues that came about from them not talking to each other properly was frustrating - but in the whole atmosphere of Bletchley and everything being secret, careless talk costs lives etc I can understand that. 

I also googled about Osla and Prince Philip and found it was true  And from other non fiction stuff I’ve read and watched I do think it was a pretty accurate depiction of Bletchley - much more so than the fairly well known movie the Imitation Game which took massive liberties but still worth a watch for anyone who’s interested.

Non fiction I’ve read that tells more about life at Bletchley
The Road To Station X by Sarah Baring who was one of Osla’s real life friends and talks more about the Prince Philip story, she (a real life person) also talks about boyfriends, dances, makeup etc etc so I do think that part of the book was genuine in that the women could do what they did but also be interested in more frivolous things
Enigma by Hugh Sebag-Montefiore

Fiction but pretty good
ENIGMA by Robert Harris (also made into a movie with Kate Winslett)

TV show - The Bletchley Circle (if you can get it in the US)

And yes no one was allowed to talk about Bletchley for many years after the war due to the Offical Secrets Act, which was a shame for the women who made such a massive contribution and everyone just assumed were typists or some such, possibly even worse for the men who were considered cowards and shirkers because they weren’t in uniform and didn’t actually take part in the fighting.

It’s long been on my bucket list to do the tour of Bletchley Park but it’s not particularly near me or anywhere I would normally go so haven’t organised it yet.

[bumblebuzz21]

I liked the book. I really liked the first 50%, found the 50-75 a bit of a slog and then enjoyed 75-100. I did not google Osla, but I had to google to see if this was even the real Prince Philip! I don't know much about the royal family.

[ermabom]

I am about 2/3 of the way through the book but I don't care about spoilers. In fact I often read the ending after I'm part-way through the book.

I am finding it a slog. I feel that the pace of the book is very slow in the beginning. Yes, it sets up context and provides a feel for the way life was but I still found it very slow paced. I am getting to the point where the pace is picking up but I'm still not able to read more than 2-3 chapters before I get bored and wander off to do something else. Books that hold my attention can't be put down. I've stayed up all night finishing them and this wasn't one of them.

Having said that, I like the characters and their imperfections and the situations that result. I know quite a bit about Bletchley Park and the Enigma machine because I read up a lot on cryptography when I was creating a project on it for 6th graders in a girls' STEM summer camp my employer used to run. I should say that I know a lot about what went on at Bletchley Park re: decryption and the war effort and how many women were a part of it, but not about daily life there. So that part was interesting and new.

I started with Simon Singh's The Code Book which is about cryptography in general and is a wonderful read. Funnily, after I borrowed it from the library and read it I found that my son had a copy he had left in my house!

There is also an online Enigma emulator if you'd like to play with it
www.101computing.net/enigma-machine-emulator/

[moosishun]

I kind of like these comments better than I liked the book! Ha!

I liked the basic story but the romance part of things made me roll my eyes a lot - I thought I was in for a hellish descent of a romance novel. But then, thank goodness, people like Beth's mother and stinkers like that traitor and then the overall powerfulness of the real-life situation took over. I wonder if anybody was really "sprung" from the asylums like Beth was. That would be some kind of compelling if that were - I happen to think that her fictional character is based upon two real-life people?

I wonder what Prince Phillip and Queen Elizabeth would think of this story line? I know that Philip died but Elizabeth is still Queen. Was this published before he died? I would love some Royals' take on this thing.

[sal]

For those of you finding this a slog, I wonder if you would have done better listening to it like I did.

Though of course I spent the entire book thinking her name was Oslo, not Osla.

[Viognier]

I am enjoying the book, though I had to work through some head games before I could get into it... Ugh, historical/ okay, but it is fiction. Double ugh, war novel... Yikes! 600+ pages! Last week I figured I could read 100 pages a day and finish on time, but i had a show to watch, then dinner to fix another night. I finally got serious about it Friday.

And I am enjoying the book. I like the story enough that I don't need to google to see if it's accurate yet. Maybe when I'm done, if it doesn't come out in discussion here. And go ahead and stick all your spoilers in the little comments that I can't see on my phone 🤣🤣

[bernelli]

Day 2: Secrecy was a cloud that hung over the BP worker's heads. Even to their spouses later after the war. How do you think that impacted their lives?
Do you think it would impact their relationships later --- for example, Mab and her husband learning they both were there but not having the close/intimacy of having been able to share that part of their lives.

How would you handle such a situation today if you found yourself in a position to help your current country? Could you do the secrecy at that level?

What other roles/impacts do you think the secrecy had on the BP workers?

[bumblebuzz21]

I felt so bad for Osla when she was instructed to pull back from Phillip. I would have been drawn and quartered 5 minutes in to the job. I can't keep a secret to save my life. Maybe from people outside of BP, but I would want to just chit chat with everyone at work.

[bernelli]

I'm one of those people who spill all my secrets to "my person". Fortunately for me (or him?) we're still married at 33 years....so his life will never be in danger. My secrets also don't impact an entire country.
But that secrecy thing, I'd have a hard time keeping it from those close to me. I think I would also need to decompress and talk about it with someone. These were war-time secrets with brutally evil consequences, like the bombings. Yet they were to keep it all locked up inside themselves.

I think it would be really difficult for me to do.

Google told me there truly was a couple who were married only to learn that they'd both been in the BP after the fact. The movie-side of my brain finds that to be so dang romantic. The realistic side of my brain is really frustrated with that. Compartmentalizing that much of yourself would be hard -- women impacting the war... during a time when women didn't get a whole lot of respect anyway. It's something I can imagine these women wanted people to understand about themselves.

[fitin14]

regarding secrets I can't even imagine.  the part about Beth's betrayal for example and knowing they were going to be where the bombing was going to happen.  
On a much lesser note my DH does printing in the office of the PM here and he is under a very high security level. like men come with a briefcase handcuffed and he prints stuff in front of them level then they  leave the room with him and all the printed copies.   Sometimes he sees things that are quite upsetting since he is very political minded but he can't say anything. so I can only imagine in wartime! 

[moosishun]

Mr. moo was in the Secret Service and there were lots of things he had to keep silent, even today. Any kind of talk about the President or past Presidents is completely out of the conversation. However, there was one time when he was a true wreck after 9/11 and even lost his pay-check (which they found at work). We were driving around and I said "This really isn't like you." *grunt* and then I said "Oh, my gosh, there was supposed to be something going on this week, wasn't there?" *just a look*

So, I think he could take it to his grave because he seems to be doing just fine in that category, and would have been another Beth.

I'm not so sure I could do it or not. Since I love to jaw about anything and everything, I would probably have to file all that under "FORGOTTEN."

[gemster]

I think I’d have been useless at Bletchley as I have discalculia and don’t pick up languages easily, I’m fairly good at crosswords though which apparently was a criteria for recruiting at one point, the government ran a fake competition to solve a really hard crossword - the ‘prize’ was actually a job at Bletchley.

I’m pretty good at keeping secrets but I’ve never been asked to keep them at that level and nothing really work related other than someone’s looking for another job but don’t tell the boss type stuff.

When I was little I really wanted to be a spy but be a double agent for the Russians  I’d read a book about double agents and thought it sounded like an interesting career

When I was older (at university) I was still interested in ‘spying’ (though not the double agent bit) unfortunately I got rejected by our foreign and commonwealth office (which is the career path to MI5 and MI6) I think likely due to my parents being Irish as this was the time when the IRA were our main enemy.

That is very interesting about Mr fitin14 and Mr moosishun , especially that Mr Moo still won’t talk about it though guess he would have signed something similar to our official secrets act, I know it’s still a Very Big Deal here if someone breaks that.

[bernelli]

Did you guys hold Beth in contempt at all for NOT sparing her friends the potential weekend bombing? I kinda did.
It's in the grey area. Beth didn't really think in grey... just black and white. But I felt that was a bit cruel of her.

[ermabom]

I have had to keep some secrets from my spouse. Although we worked for the same company, our confidentiality policies where that people had a need to know the information that was labeled confidential and spouses weren't on the need-to-know list. But these were small potatoes compared to state secrets during a war where lives were at stake,

I don't blame Beth for not telling. She violated the rules once and she felt that she shouldn't do it again.

I think it would have been difficult for spouses to co-exist with those kinds of secrets and it would add stress to some marriages. If they could only say "I worked on stuff I can't talk about" it might have been better. Just as if Osla could have told Phillip that she couldn't write to him for security reasons. But not being able to say even that would have been tough.

[bumblebuzz21]

Nov 9, 2021 16:57:33 GMT -5 bernelli said:

Did you guys hold Beth in contempt at all for NOT sparing her friends the potential weekend bombing? I kinda did.
It's in the grey area. Beth didn't really think in grey... just black and white. But I felt that was a bit cruel of her.

100%. I legit hated her so much for that.

[moosishun]

I didn't hate Beth for that but I can see why her friend did. My gosh, she lost her husband and her daughter in ONE FELL SWOOP.

And I kind of hated the book for that because OF COURSE THAT WOULD HAPPEN.

This reminds me of that time in the movie (about Alan Turin) where Alan knew about an awful thing happening to a fleet of ships and his secretary had her brother on one of the boats. She begged and begged for him to warn them, but he said "I can't. Then the Germans will know we know their code." I imagine she hated him as well.

This probably happened more than once at Bletcheley.

[bernelli]

Day 3:

Who did you think the traitor was? Did you guess it was who it was?

After you learned who the traitor was, did you see clues within the story that supported foretelling of the culprit?

Do you sympathize with the reasoning for the information sharing the traitor was doing -- how would you have handled this if you had been there and discovered this was happening?

[bernelli]

I totally did not guess the traitor.

As proof of my horrible detecting skills, I suspected Beth's awful bitch-of-a-mother the most.
I also suspected Francis. And Peggy (Beth's coworker). And the manager they all worked for. And Dilly.

I'm pretty sure I also suspected another member of the bookclubbers too -- but I don't have my book anymore to reference names. It was already a week late when I turned it in.)

I missed all the clues and saw clues where there weren't any. I want to tell you all you're welcome for myself not choosing investigation as my career as it would do the opposite of helping the universe. haha

If I did discover a traitor in the midst, I'm afraid that I would overlook it..not believe it... ask the person to their face and then be murdered. I'm just not stealthy.

[bumblebuzz21]

I did not guess the traitor and I definitely did not sympathize with the reasons. Gemster might though

[sal]

I also did not guess.

Also, I was all "wait, hold the press, THAT'S who you're now engaged to?" and am realizing that it is possible Osla actually had stated that earlier and I missed it on listening (instead of reading print).

[fitin14]

I didn't guess right. I thought it was Peggy too.  I don't think there is any viable reason for leaking information especially during wartime.