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Post by ermabom on Nov 10, 2021 11:46:04 GMT -5
I didn't guess the traitor till very late and sort of thought that her fiancé might be the traitor since he was never mentioned by name or showed up in the narrative of the current time. I did suspect Peggy for a while as well as some of the others. I knew it wasn't Dilly. Dilly Knox was too well-known a member of that group (like Turing) to have his character changed in that way.
I actually never understood his reasoning for leaking information. It sounded awfully self-serving to me.
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Post by gemster on Nov 10, 2021 14:57:34 GMT -5
I did not guess at all and no I didn’t sympathise though 9 year old me probably would have I also thought it was Peggy and didn’t make the connection that Osla’s fiancée isn’t named and he and the traitor were one and the same. ETA same as ermabom I knew it wasn’t Dilly as he’s a well known real life person not a fictional character.
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Post by bernelli on Nov 10, 2021 16:49:04 GMT -5
I actually did not realize Dilly is/was a real life dude! So that must mean that his wife was too -- I love that fact (although, I'm sure I did suspect her of being the traitor, too).
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Post by ermabom on Nov 10, 2021 17:13:07 GMT -5
Dilly Knox was real and a lot of the portrayal of Beth working with him is real. He did work in the bath and he developed the system that Beth and the others used to break the code. The back of the book says that Beth was based on Mavis Lever (a brilliant code breaker but one who didn’t have a breakdown) and another anonymous one who did and who was put in a sanitarium ww2db.com/person_bio.php?person_id=961
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Post by moosishun on Nov 10, 2021 18:13:44 GMT -5
I was sad that it was probably Peggy! Ha! No! It was that stinker fiance!
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Post by moosishun on Nov 10, 2021 20:53:07 GMT -5
I actually did sort of understand that stink's reasoning, although he was very very self-serving, and as Beth told him, "You will never be rid of them because they have so much on you."
He felt that the British were holding onto information that the Russians could use, since they were our allies. So, he filled them in. Perhaps he was sympathetic to communist idealogy, but that isn't really said.
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Post by peacemama on Nov 10, 2021 21:01:32 GMT -5
Joining late. Interesting book, but would have perhaps appreciated it better if I wasn't rushing to finish. I read all your posts and peppered the thread with a scattering of comments.
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Post by gemster on Nov 11, 2021 4:40:00 GMT -5
There were a good few people (Cambridge 5 plus many more) who saw Russia were our allies (which they were during the war) and should be told more, I can understand that in many ways as much as the British and Americans may not like to think it WW2 in Europe was won on the Russian front and their military losses plus civilian deaths and what the country had to endure under Nazi occupation are almost unbearable to think about. I think some people did it out of genuine sympathy & concern for Russia whereas others ie Giles were likely in it for the money. Apparently Giles is based on John Cairncross who was passing information to the Russians, he features in the Imitation Game movie (played by the actor who is Tom in Downton Abbey) but is portrayed completely inaccurately as he didn’t actually work directly with Turing. I think Cairncross was much more of a genuine idealist than Giles and not actually a bad person. He did continue to pass information to the Russians after WW2 was over but I guess once you make a deal with the devil it’s not exactly easy to extract yourself. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Cairncross
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Post by bernelli on Nov 11, 2021 8:19:53 GMT -5
Day 4: Two questions today, to squeeze them in!
What did you make of the asylum stay, the threat of the lobotomy & especially the escape?
So much of this story revolves around relationships, between Mab, Osla & Beth and also their boyfriends/lovers. Did the writer's use of these relationships help create more interest, and drive the story for you?
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Post by bernelli on Nov 11, 2021 8:42:22 GMT -5
I was a bit skeptical of some of the things happening with Beth in the asylum. For example, her being successful of keeping that key... I don't believe that could've happened. The level of cruelty in those places was thorough, and I think she would not have been able to continue to hide that key from those people.
I was also doubtful they could've broken her out. The state of "mental care" back then was absolutely horrendous. The book did represent quite a bit of that, and the lobotomy of Beth's chess partner was heartbreaking. But this is one part of the story that I had a hard time swallowing. I haven't done my typical googling-as-I-read with this book, so I hope to learn that I'm wrong!
Regarding the relationships. I loved them. I KNEW when Mab began to soften up and truly fall for Francis that he had a red dot on his head. But it is always the relationships and hope and love that propels me. I'm here for all that. I enjoyed the relationships so much.
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Post by moosishun on Nov 11, 2021 8:45:35 GMT -5
The writing of the relationships made my head hurt because it was too romance novel for me. I can probably talk of it now, but that there was some Bad Hat writing and caused a bit of gaggage on my part. Now, I can see the differences and talk about them, which I probably will later, but right now, I have to get the stink of the writing off my plate.
I'd like to know if anybody got sprung like Beth did because that also seemed too contrived to be true. I have a feeling that some of the Bletchley circle might have had a lobotomy, but that's another thing I'd like to know if it were true or not. I imagine life in a mental asylum would be just awful if you were put there not because you were out of touch with reality but because the authorities thought you were a threat.
This makes me really mad about those Cambridge Five - I think they deserved a few months/years in an asylum since a BREACH OF SECURITY definitely happened on their watch. And I wonder if asylum stays were more numerous for women than for men......
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Post by ermabom on Nov 11, 2021 8:54:10 GMT -5
I also think that they would have found the key and also discovered her throwing up her meds much earlier than they did. I don't think patients had that much privacy but I could be wrong. I don't know enough about the security measures to say whether the escape was probable or not. Since they expected most patients to be drugged or incapable after lobotomies, they might not have had very rigorous security measures. Cruelty though was endemic in those institutions and possibly still exists today in some care centers.
I think the relationships help make the characters relatable and keep our interest in what happens to them. Honestly, if I wasn't curious about how Beth ended up in the asylum, I would not have read past the first third of the book. And I was interested in that because of the relationship between Man, Osla and her as well as the family dynamics in the house. I loved Mab's relationship with Fracis because of the personality of Francis. He reminded me a little (very little) of Peter Wimsey and his reactions to what he experienced in WWI in the trenches. I really wasn't too intrigued by the other boyfriends/husbands. I loved Beth's relationship to Dilly Knox later in the book.
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Post by peacemama on Nov 11, 2021 9:36:53 GMT -5
Giles mentioned he ensured Beth was sent to a "nice asylum." (A lie he could tell himself to assuage guilt.) I wonder if post-WW there were any institutions where that wasn't an oxymoron.
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Post by gemster on Nov 11, 2021 14:56:45 GMT -5
I think the depiction of the asylum and the lobotomy is sadly all too accurate I’m a bit sceptical about the escape, though like ermabom said if they expected the patients to be highly sedated or lobotomised then security may not have been that tight. I wasn’t super keen on the romances & much more interested in the women themselves and the work at Bletchley rather than the men in their lives. The romances did I suppose at least contribute to some of the plot so I suppose I’ll let the authorf, I did skim quite a lot of the romances and relationship stuffthough.
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Post by ermabom on Nov 11, 2021 16:43:01 GMT -5
I was listening to a podcast about another author. The host tries to get new people interested in the author’s books by having a couple of people who have never read the author read and discuss one of her books. One comment that has come up a few times is that ‘there are so many people that I can’t keep them straight’.
When I think about the Rose Code, there are so many people in it but I never ever thought that having too many people in a book was a problem. If there’s a family dinner with the extended family in the opening scene of the book, wouldn’t you expect to have at least 10-is people there?
What do you think about the characters and the numbers of people in the Rose Code? Could a large number or even a few have been eliminated? Do you think having a large cast adds to the character development of the main characters?
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Post by fitin14 on Nov 11, 2021 20:08:45 GMT -5
Regarding the asylum's running and the escape. I didn't thing any of it was plausible. how did they pass as her sisters when later on we learn the asylum had contact with Beth's family? and what took so long to look for her.
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Post by bernelli on Nov 12, 2021 8:20:02 GMT -5
Day 5 / Last Day:
What specific thoughts, feelings or ideas did you have that we have not yet touched on?
Is this a story you would recommend to others?
I read that this is being considered for a series -- would you watch the show?
Also -- thanks for reading and participating in the discussion! I always love learning other perspectives on the books we read.
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Post by ermabom on Nov 12, 2021 8:41:54 GMT -5
I don't think I would watch the series. I usually dislike series based on books. Ditto with movies. They never fit my mental image of what the characters look like or behave.
I also thought that the Francis/Lucy death was contrived. Of course it is plausible but it just seemed too pat. I guess it was needed to make Mab hate Beth and Osla. I would have been happy if the book had focused on their friendships and their work and ignored all the romantic relationships except to mention them.
Thank you Bernelli for leading us. This was interesting although I wasn't sure I'd finish the book when I was in the middle of it.
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Post by moosishun on Nov 12, 2021 8:54:34 GMT -5
I came to respect this book for introducing aspects of 1940's life in the middle of WWII and the unsuspecting people who found themselves to be very helpful in the effort to win it. Such a helpful bunch - Oslo as translator (even though she had to wheedle and deedle to get that position), Mabs as a feeder of info to the machine and even knew the ins and outs of the machine (picked because of her height), and Beth, who became an amazing code breaker, even though her interactions with others around her were not as comfortable.
Actually, the entire Beth thing spun out of control for me because she pretty much became 3 people - the one scared kitten at home, the one scared kitten who felt at home in the de-coding center (like a crossword puzzle or like figuring out the intracies of a rose), and then the assertive in-your-face woman in the asylum. I imagine she could plot her way around things, but being as assertive as she was, I don't know.
The worst I can say about all three of those main characters was that they seemed to be caricatures of real live people - blowing too much one way or another. The best I can say is that they had interesting story lines.
I loved the coming together of the "troops" to uncover Giles. Wonder if he went into an insane asylum?
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Post by bumblebuzz21 on Nov 12, 2021 9:18:05 GMT -5
I liked the book and would recommend it to others. I really liked that the end was wrapped up with a tidy bow, because that is how I like my books to end!
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Post by peacemama on Nov 12, 2021 9:41:21 GMT -5
The scene that lingers with me is the bombing in the club. One moment dancing, the next devastation.
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Post by peacemama on Nov 12, 2021 9:47:06 GMT -5
I may watch the series. This description from Black Bear Pictures is exactly what I would expect the series to be like: This story is The Imitation Game meets The Crown.
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Post by fitin14 on Nov 12, 2021 12:59:51 GMT -5
I might watch the series, I am on the fence but if I saw the trailer and felt it was properly depicted I might be persuaded. thanks so much all for a great discussion and for course bernelli, for leading us!
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Post by gemster on Nov 12, 2021 13:00:07 GMT -5
I’d definitely watch the series, think it may be better than the book (as a lot of Agatha Christie adaptations are) as some superfluous stuff gets cut out and you get a better feel for the characters. I’d also definitely recommend this book to others, I really enjoyed it and yes liked the nice happy ending with no loose ends Thank you for leading us bernelli, i very much enjoyed the discussion too but you know me I’m all about war I think I’m up next with Addie la Rue, I’d better re-read it as must be about a year since I first read and of course have forgotten most of it. Warning for those who want to read - it is long!
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Post by bernelli on Nov 12, 2021 15:50:03 GMT -5
Thanks for the warning that our next book is long, gemster! I'll get on it sooner rather than later. I loved the discussion this week. Thanks for all your book chat! I really enjoyed this story, and was glad to get to discuss it rather than just read it in my own private bubble.
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