GDT BOOKCLUB -Woman They Couldn’t Silence

[Deleted]

Day 1

I loved this book! And, this woman.

I can’t think of a better way to do, “The Woman They Couldn’t Silence”, justice than to use the study questions provided by the author. I also, had a few questions of my own and I can imagine that you people do, too. So,lets get started and just throw out any questions you would like to discuss, as the week progresses.

1. What were your lasting impressions of Elizabeth?

2. Elizabeth is locked up in the asylum because her husband does not agree with her religious views. Do you think modern-day America is more or less tolerant of diverse religions (and controversial viewpoints) than in Packard’s time? How free are followers of minority faiths to practice in the US today?

3. Elizabeth employs a variety of tactics --- physical resistance, negotiating with hospital staff, writing --- to protest her treatment throughout the book. Which techniques were most effective for her? What strategies would you turn to in her place?

4. “Novel reading,” masturbation and irregular menstrual cycles are a few of the many reasons that women were admitted to asylums in Elizabeth’s time. Which, if any, of these justifications stood out to you? How has our understanding of these “causes of insanity” changed?

[bumblebuzz21]

Hi everyone. Happy book club week! Elizabeth's strength and resolve was just so amazing to me. I'm pretty sure I would have given up so many times. I thought all of her tactics worked well (minus the I'll be your pretend wife letter. I never did really understand that). I almost lost my mind when they kept saying that if she argued that she wasn't insane that meant she was insane. Like WTF???!!

[bernelli]

I LOVED this book.
She was an impressive and strong lady. I kept thinking "how would I handle that", and I'm sure I would've been so distraught and lost that I would have joined the ranks of the insane. I am so impressed with her tenacity. She really stuck to her morals (except for trying to be tricky and writing that blasted letter). I almost started crying when I read that all her kids moved into her home with her.

I do think that people are free to pray their own way today. That doesn't mean they don't meet negativity...but people are free to pray their own way. I do wish we could scrub America of all the cults -- but that would go against the freedom of religion. So it's a slippery slope to set those limits of defining what is a "real" religion.

My degree is in Psychology (I meant to go on for my masters, leave IT, but I had another baby so I stayed in the corporate world) and I've done some studies on history/changes in psych. I also toured a local "asylum" that's a museum now -- I KNEW about the torture and abuse patients endured. BUT, reading her account was horrific. I went from feeling so incredibly ANGRY to feeling helpless... I cannot imagine living through that bullshit.

There were times when I was reading that I was actually amazed she made positive strides -- society was so idiotic -- believing married women were just objects of their husbands. Man... I had some true man-hate happening to me while reading this.

[zoomingzebra]

Hello! This book will stick with me for a long time. It is mind-boggling to me that stuff like this actually happened. Elizabeth was an incredible woman and I can’t imagine the strength that she had to muster every day of her life to accomplish all that she did. Simply amazing.

[sal]

I'm not done yet (meant to read more on my weekend trip, but ended up napping for ages after yesterday's half marathon instead) but will be back when I'm done. I did a tour of this place a few years ago when in West Virginia and so I could totally picture this place she got shoved into. So horrible:

trans-alleghenylunaticasylum.com/

[gemster]

I loved the book too but it was hard reading at times

Elizabeth was amazing, such a strong person I don’t know how she managed to keep herself going and also to care for others, I would have been terrified out of my wits (would have probably actually gone insane) in her situation.

Q2 I don’t know, America is a much more religious country than the U.K. (we are very secular over here most people don’t have or follow any religion) but I couldn’t comment on tolerance, at a guess I’d say those who are not religious at all or follow a non-Christian religion may not be tolerated well in certain parts of the USA

Q3 - I think her relationship with some of the hospital staff was a big bonus for her as she had allies on her side. I’m still a bit confused about her relationship with Doctor Macfarland though.

Q4 none of the reasons given were justified and it’s shocking that women could be locked up and physically abused for these reasons. Not sure about the USA but there are some cultures here in the U.K. where women are persecuted if they don’t toe the line - honour killings and genital mutilation are still practiced though of course they’re illegal but go on behind closed doors.

[fitin14]

I wasn't able to finish but will try and will keep up with the discussion in any case.  I was appalled as well at the treatment she went through and the women she encountered there as well. 

[Deleted]

I was just amazed at how brilliant she was! So far ahead of her time.I, also, kept wondering how I would have reacted. I don’t think I have her bravery. It was difficult to read, at times. I felt like a balloon and with each chapter, I deflated more and more. When she buried the keys, and I realized that she did it deliberately so that she could get the writ of habeus corpes, I wanted to dance. So freaking smart!

Religion. We have moved to a level of tolerance above what Elizabeth suffered. But, I do think we still judge other’s religions very harshly,

Tactics. Her writing served her so well. But the hiding them in her clothing seams? Did they NEVER wash the patients clothing? I mean it had to have been NEVER for some of those to survive. I guess that should not surprise me after reading her treatment, but wow…. I did not understand the letter to the doctor either. It seemed like a ploy and then at times, it seemed like she was serious. Could it have been Stockholm Syndrome?

Causes of Insanity. I came to the conclusion that the causes were almost anything that a disgruntled husband wanted it to be. If the same reasoning had been applied to men, the doctor could have been admitted as a patient. His sexual behavior toward other women went way beyond the horrors of reading a novel. I do think there is still a “suppressed” belief that when women are having a hard time with their emotions, it “might” be related to their menstrual cycle. In my day, men coworkers would say out loud, “jeez, take a Midol”.

[honeybzzzs]

Loved this book! These are the types of books I like to read, rather then ‘story books’, so I knew I’d love it from page one!

She was an amazing woman. People like this astound me. I don’t have the fortitude to continue on once I’ve been stumped on over and over again. So for people that can pick themselves up, again and again, I say Thank You! She never gave up!

I don’t think we tolerate different religions as well as we think we believe we do.

If an irregular period was all it took to land you in an asylum, I would have been there no doubt. I was never regular. And who was checking on that anyway? It seems like periods were such a secret thing in those days. And perhaps that was the point. “I need to get rid of my wife. I’ll tell them this. No one will check”.

I listened to this on audiobook. I fast forwarded through the torture part. I don’t do torture. I walk out of movie theaters with torture scenes. I know horrific things happen. I won’t read or watch in-depth about it.

Women were objects of their husbands.
I’m old enough to remember when women couldn’t get credit in their own name. Their husband had to sign for them. My sister was divorced from her husband in 1990…he had to sign that he gave his permission that she could attend college.

[peacemama]

Lasting impression of Elizabeth: She had such a clear moral compass and was the personification of resilience. Her actions aligned with her values.

I read the book during March, Women's History Month, and kept thinking... How many other high-impact women like Elizabeth (whose life's work was unknown to me) are lost in history, yet whose activism changed the lives of so many and lingers still today?

A quote that I thought was fitting:
It took me quite a long time to develop a voice, and now that I have it, I am not going to be silent." ― Madeleine Albright

[Deleted]

Apr 4, 2022 17:39:17 GMT -5 peacemama said:

 How many other high-impact women like Elizabeth (whose life's work was unknown to me) are lost in history, yet whose activism changed the lives of so many and lingers still today?

This occurred to me, too. So thankful that Kate Moore brought Elizabeth’s story to life for us.

[Deleted]

Day 2

1. Elizabeth and McFarland have a complicated relationship to say the least. What did you think of her continuous attempts to redeem him? Did she truly think he would change, or was she just trying to improve her own circumstances? What were the long-lasting effects of the relationship on each of them?

2. When Elizabeth is first released from the asylum, how does her homecoming compare to her daydreams and expectations? How do you think the women, who were still committed as patients, pictured Elizabeth homecoming?

3. Do you think you could have taken on a servant’s role to those who seemed to be the “least” in the asylum, like Elizabeth did?

4. How did the attitudes of various staff members in the asylum impact you? Why do you think some tried to help and others became aggressors against those committed to the facility?

[bumblebuzz21]

I think she really did think he redeemable. Elizabeth seemed to want to see the best in people (even her own husband for a while). I don't think there were any long lasting effects on McFarland. What a dick.
Her homecoming was definitely not what she had hoped for. I felt so bad for her. I wonder if the women who were still admitted gave it any thought. Especially that poor lady who had been there like 5 years. I am sure she didn't want to think about it at all.
Living in filth is one of my nightmares, plus I'm a nurse so I think I could have taken on that role for sure!
I think the staff attitudes were 2 fold: some people took the job just so they could be cruel. I also think that some of the other folks (who maybe had good intentions at first) were just dragged down by the culture of the place.

[bernelli]

Answering each question...
1. I think Elizabeth truly thought that he would use critical thinking and McFarland recognize her logic. I think she really believed that he would see her sanity. She KNEW she was sane... I think she was in disbelief to think that this educated man who saw truly insane people all the time would recognize that she was sane. Her faith in the truth, and her faith in people was so huge... it had to be so crushing to learn that he was against her the entire time. Then later, I think she honestly believed that the truth would prevail and people would SEE. It's so strong of her that she never gave up the fight.

2. It was interesting to me that she wanted to return home and pick up where she left off....with the man that had her committed... he was SUCH A DICK. I was sad to watch how horribly that all went wrong. I cannot imagine the heartbreak of having all your kids turn against you. As for the women still locked up in the asylum...I imagine some of them were happy for her and some of them must've been jealous.

3. I think is dire situations you just find your way in what will help you survive. Elizabeth was so mentally strong... it is incredible to me how Elizabeth fought this so well. I don't know how I would cope in the same situation...I would like to think I'd conquer like she did, but I don't know if I actually would!

4. Some people just suck. Weak minded bullies are awful. I think some of the "caretakers" must have had such horrible abuses themselves that maybe they should've been committed. It's just like anywhere, though. There are people who are kind and there are people who are backstabby or cruel. When people have a job that impacts the welfare of other humans, it's just awful that some people are just mean.

[peacemama]

I just realized this morning that Kate Moore was the author of Radium Girls. Not sure how I missed that connection. Both works are simply amazing books about historical heroines challenging injustices.

Elizabeth had a heart of service. It's apparent in her ability to tirelessly advocate and take action to improve the circumstances for those within the asylum... even when she was no longer confined within its walls.

[zoomingzebra]

1. Their relationship was so complicated. I think she truly believed he was on her side. She was so shocked when she learned that he had kept her love letter. I think she truly believed he was a gentleman and would destroy it. Someone mentioned Stockholm syndrome. Maybe so. It’s so hard to believe that she would have anything but hate for him.

2. I assume that her homecoming was not what she expected. She seemed to hold the belief that everything would work out and she could fix it all. My guess is that she underestimated how truly evil her husband was until it was too late. I think some of the women left at the asylum thought she was lucky and everything would be great for her. But there were probably some that did not expect her to have a good experience going home.

3. I don’t know if I could have done what she did. I fear I would have just become insane.

4. There will always be people who work for an organization that will do horrible things to keep their job. And there will always be people who can’t bear it and won’t last because they won’t do what is expected. And there were obviously people at the asylum who took advantage to be as evil as they wished. I’m glad that there were some employees who spoke up in the end and helped bring it all down.

[honeybzzzs]

Question 1. I think she held out hope that McFarland really was a good person. He LISTENED to her at their first introduction. She was amazed that she could have a thoughtful discussion with a man, and he would have an intelligent discussion with her.
He continued to give her hope, so she continued to trust him. Letting her write her book, etc.

Question 2. I don’t think she wanted to go home to her husband, but she had no choice. If she divorced him, he would get the children. Moving in with him assured that she could be with her children. And, ‘making a nice home’ for him would, hopefully, convince him that she should stay.

Question 3. I loved that she cleaned the filthy. That she looked around her and instead of falling into despair she rolled up her sleeves and washed people, bedding and walls. She was gentle and kind to the scared and insane. Letting then move at their own pace. Even when she was cold-cocked when she kissed that woman’s head, she continued on. She was a much better woman then I would have been.
My first thought, when she started washing people was, “That’s what Buddha and Jesus would have done”.

Question 4. The attitudes of the staff wasn’t always torturous. They had mentioned, that once the Civil War broke out, there was a lack of employees. The better people were able to leave for better employment. Helping the war effort. The people that were left, and the ones that were hired to replace the good employees were folks that couldn’t get employment before this time. Now, with their men off to war they were forced into employment and these were the only places hiring them. I believe that a lot of them were on the verge of insanity themselves.
I think the really tragedy was that McFarland would come and observe, and turn and walk away. ‘Just business as usual’

[Deleted]

1.Elizabeth and McFarland - I think Elizabeth really thought she was dealing with a rational man, in the beginning. I think she thought he could be convinced that she was “misplaced” through intelligent rational reasoning. Long term, I think McFarland was a narcissist who actually enjoyed the sick control he had over Elizabeth and others. When he hung himself, I don’t think he had a bit of remorse related to her. I do hope that in his final moments he saw her face. I think Elizabeth was too smart to let his behavior prevent her from accomplishing what she wanted.

2.Her release. I think the one true friend Elizabeth had, in the asylum, must have been elated that she was being released. I wonder if other women gained some element of hope through her release. My heart broke with the circumstances of her return home. How did she keep going?

3.Servant - I don’t know if I could do what she did. When she got smacked for kissing the one woman’s face, I thought, “that would be the end of me”. I have been a caregiver for my mom and MIL. It was the hardest things I ever had to do. It’s just not in my DNA. But, I respected her greatly for filling her time with purposeful activity and trying to lesson others mental anguish.

4.Attitudes/Aggressors - I agree with whoever, earlier, stated that the war changed the type of people who were available to hire. And, that women needed work, whether or not it was a good fit. I loved the employees who helped her. The ones who mistreated patients were hard to read about.

[gemster]

1. I never really got my head round the relationship between Elizabeth and McFarland, he was awful and I agree complete narcissist, I just don’t know why she went back to trusting him after he put her on ward 8, she was so sharp and intelligent he seemed to be her one weak spot for some reason.

2. So sad but again I didn’t understand why she went back to her husband’s house, I know there were the children but in her place I just couldn’t have risked being anywhere near that husband of hers.

3.No way could I have done that, I am not a natural caregiver & do not deal well with bodily fluids or bad odours. I seriously think I’d have gone insane with fear on that ward and I’m sure a lot of those poor women did.

4. Most of the initial staff seemed kind and caring and wanted to help Elizabeth, I agree that things went very downhill with the war and some of the later staff were horribly cruel, can’t remember her name but the one with the keys in particular

[Deleted]

Day 3

I have early morning appointment so posting tonight.

1. Elizabeth’s trial was supposed to be a habeas corpus case, where the judge alone ruled. The judge quickly moved to appoint a jury. This was most unusual for a case concerned with a woman and her sanity. Why do you think the judge made this determination. Do you think a jury is qualified to determine someone’s sanity?


2. The book explores the power of rumor and reputation. Even though, Elizabeth is declared sane, rumors persist about her sanity for the rest of her life and were used to discredit her. Can you think of modern day examples where, even though someone has been cleared of something, their opponents continue to use that something against them? Do you think this is “fair game” or is it morally wrong?

[peacemama]

Did some quick tangent research. Women were not allowed to serve on juries in Illinois until 1939.

[zoomingzebra]

1. I don't know why the judge did it that way. It happened so fast. Could it be that the judge didn't want to be the only one to determine her sanity? It was better for him to push it off to a jury? I definitely don't think having a jury decide your sanity is the correct way to go. But it also shouldn't be the director of the asylum who wants the money you will generate.

2. The main one that came to my mind was OJ. Even though cleared by a jury, many many still think him guilty to this day. I'm sure that there are many lower profile people that this happens to. I don't know if I think it is fair game, nor morally wrong. Somewhere in between, maybe?

[honeybzzzs]

Question 1. I agree with zoomingzebra. I think he didn’t want the full burden, for possibly political reason.
I don’t think a jury can make a diagnosis of insanity. But we still do it all the time. Criminal cases that are so heinous that ‘he has to be crazy. Who would do something like that’.
I was just listening to the podcast Murder in Oregon. At one point, it talks about the Mayor/Governor of Portland/Oregon and the continued rape of a 13 year old and the years of coverup, even involving the police. (Goldschmidt)

Question 2. Once Elizabeth was released from the asylum, and started stumping for her causes, she DID look crazy! Women didn’t do that in those times. Even now, if we see someone on the side of the street, shouting that “The End Is Near”, we give them the side-eye. I think she looked like a similar type person to the people in her time. It’s only through recent eyes that we notice what a brave and determined woman she was.

[bernelli]

1. I wasn't sure why he did that either, but I figured it was for some self-serving reason (because I have become jaded and distrustful of people in powerful roles and categorize them all as abusers of the system and liars, and figure they're doing some friend a favor somewhere along the line that will be at the expense of some poor regular-joe like myself...but I digress). I like the theory that he didn't want to carry the burden alone. There was a lot of media/local support for Elizabeth...and also re-elections for judges, I suppose... so that does make a lot of sense to me (and fits with my jaded theory of self-serving behaviors). NO, I don't think a jury is qualified to determine anyone's sanity...and neither is just one person (aka McFarland).

2. Yes, I have a near & dear example of the power of rumor & rumination. The principal of our local HS was run into the ground for specific behaviors and ultimately lost his job. Long story short, the fucking news people ran with the muck-raking and blasted him in the news with zero research -- the news people did attend a school board meeting where the entire parent base attended and the news people couldn't find one single attendee to speak for the anti-side of the principal (so they didn't represent this AT ALL ON THE NEWS)...we were all there in support of him. Blatant misuse of power for the news and for the administrator & school board. 2 months later, the principal of another school across town was lauded as a hero on the front page of the KC Star for the EXACT SAME behaviors (allowing a student to sleep on his couch, providing clothes, a car, etc etc). This came down to local government jealousy that the principal was absolutely adored...he was so popular...he was and still is a mentor to my 2 oldest kids who have since graduated college. NOTHING out of line, indecent, negative at all. (I'm still so mad). Since this has happened, I've seen it happen in another town a couple hours away from us as well. I just feel like our local school board is corrupt and I have a distaste for our school administrator. I guess my story coincides with the supporters of Elizabeth. It is still jaw dropping the shit that went down. The kids were distraught. Man, I'm so worked up all over again. It's just wrong.

Yes, I feel this is immoral and just heinous behavior. I'm so disgusted I could spit right now. ....I felt a lot of these feelings while reading Elizabeth's story -- I had to put it down and get some distance sometimes while I was reading.

[Deleted]

1. Habeas Corpus: I agree that the judge changed it to a jury trial for political reasons. McFarland and Theophilus had some powerful friends. . But, suddenly Elizabeth had supporters, too.

“ On that front, Elizabeth’s habeas corpus hearing was already proving challenging. A massive crowd had gathered; Theophilus observed it was “enraged”and “seething.” Kankakee was a religiously diverse city, its population of thirty-eight hundred worshipping at nine different churches. Elizabeth’s case, as described by her friends, had already inspired outrage.”

2. Rumor and Reputation - I often think about Natalie Wood and Robert Wagner. I firmly believe he killed her. And, speculation is still alive today, since. 1981, through podcasts, exposes on tv, etc…. I think it’s normal for people to have opinions about such events and don’t really consider it immoral. For example, in this case, I think it’s more moral to try to bring him to trial than overlook what he possibly did. Christopher Walken was on that boat and I always wonder if, after Wagner dies, Walken may come forward with the details. I think Wagner had the power/position in Hollywood to end Walken’s career if he spoke out at the time.