GDT BOOKCLUB: Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee

[Deleted]

DAY 1

Please feel free to add any topics to the discussion. I’m struggling with how to lead. Such a difficult book to read.

1. What was your reaction to this book?
2. Brown says “ten years of abuse by white men” caused the Santee Sioux (chapter 3) to begin fighting the whites. Did the tribes have any other option besides attacking the whites?
3. What did you think about the U.S. refusing to release Civil War soldiers after the war ended in their efforts to control Indian tribes?
4. What were your feelings on the creation and use of Manifest Destiny against the tribes?

[juliajones54]

I read the first chapter and was crying so hard and so outraged I thought my heart was going to explode. Every paragraph such heinous evil and heartbreak. I couldn't continue but I AM going to read this. It will take a long time. We have so much blood on our hands, I know this but my God it is so sad to know the depths of the hurt and pain we have caused and continue to cause.

I know it wasn't any easier for all of you. I'm going to be here to read the discussion.

[Deleted]

1. What was your reaction to this book?

I downloaded the book in audio format so that I could listen on my walks. It didn’t take long to realize that I needed it in traditional format to refer back quickly. My heart breaks for the treatment these people received. There was an intentional lack of understanding or cultural acceptance. Many tribes held beliefs that there was enough land to “share” but the arrogant and selfish behaviors of the settlers made that impossible. And, the cruelty/deception of the army soldiers and government created a hostile situation from the get-go.

I found it hard to read the book. Chapter after chapter of the same behaviors against first one tribe and then another.

2. Brown says “ten years of abuse by white men” caused the Santee Sioux (chapter 3) to begin fighting the whites. Did the tribes have any other option besides attacking the whites?

I tired to see a way for them to not fight? Bring all the tribes together to negotiate with more power? Develop common languages so they could communicate faster/better? It just wasn’t possible. Time was not even on their side. The level of trickery and deceit was beyond comprehension. I really saw no other way to preserve their way of life but to fight for it.

3. What did you think about the U.S. refusing to release Civil War soldiers after the war ended in their efforts to control Indian tribes?

Ugh. How was this even legal? The poor men did not want to fight anymore. I think the forced service created an environment where the treatment became and remained extreme. Some soldiers wanted out. They were starving. The psychological effects of being forced to continue on must have been awful.

4. Manifest Destiny

Unbelievable that they created a philosophy that elevated the white man to a status where it was his “responsibility” to steal, lie and kill in an effort to fulfill his GOD(?) Given rights.

This is very difficult to discuss.

[honeybzzzs]

As I mentioned in the nominating phase of our Book Club. I had read this book in the mid-1970’s. I have never forgotten it. Seldom does a book make such an impression that it’s memory will last almost 50 years!

I mentioned that I couldn’t bring myself to read it again. I also mentioned that it is a Very Important book to read! That everyone should read it once.

I’m glad it got voted in and will be discussed.
Thank You @fairazzbueller for nominating this book and being strong enough to lead the discussion. I’ll be following along during the week.

[sal]

This is so enraging and depressing. I'm not done yet (just got to the Ute chapter) but but agree this is a necessary read.

Forcing the soldiers to stay for sure had a bad effect as they took it out on people with even less options than themselves.

We have so much to answer for in this country, in so very many arenas.

[moosishun]

I have been so busy that this totally escaped my radar. Sorry, Fair!

I did read this book in 12th grade - it was not a book we studied at school, but my family went to the library every week (weren't they great?) and I saw this book. It was probably highlighted in some way. Anyhow, it was so damned disturbing. At about the same time, the Billy Jack movies were coming out and there was such an awareness on my part as to what our government did to those who had always lived there before and how our government totally screwed the Native nations.

This makes me really irate at the parents wanting to not only censor the schools but also the PUBLIC LIBRARIES. I got such a great education just going to the public library - one of the best and most wonderful things about our country.

I will have to think about many things and grab a copy of Wounded Knee before this week is over. The entire concept of Native Americans and the government of the United States is at such odds with each other. So much awfulness. I don't know how I could live as a Native American in this country.

[bernelli]

OMGOSH, I had to purchase this to read it on my kindle because our library didn't have a digital copy. I'm glad I have it. But man, it is depressing.

I am going to admit I'm not all the way done with it. It's just so ugly. I'm struggling. But I agree that it's an important/crucial piece of history that needs to be acknowledged and read about.

The tribes had no choice at all but to either lay down and just die because the places they were told to live were not survivable OR they could fight back. Only options. I tried to imagine me being there now with my own kids. What would I do? OMG. It's a devastating read/reality. Just makes me sad.
I'm reminded of when we took a family trip to South Dakota, and we came by a museum, and we were excited/curious -- and then it was the true reality of what happened and how the land was stolen, and all the murders... we were just depressed when we left. My kids remember this too -- I think it colored the visit differently for all of us. Cowboys and indians was a fun game when I was a kid (70's)... what a slap in the face to learn the true meaning of everything (I did know much before this museum visit, but not enough..and certainly not what's shared in this book).

[Deleted]

I’m dropping this link here. It’s a 12 minute Smithsonian video on what happened. It’s beautifully done but still very sad.

www.si.edu/object/indian-problem%3Ayt_if-BOZgWZPE

[strose]

I'm only about 20% through the book this reading. I read it back in high school in the '70s, and it infuriated me. Reading it now that I've discovered my Choctaw ancestry and connected with my Choctaw relatives, I'm a bundle of emotions including fury.

[Deleted]

DAY 2


I decided to add a few quotes today.

“He was surprised to see tears well up in Spotted Tail’s eyes; he did not know that an Indian could cry.” (Colonel Maynadier)


“The only good Indians I ever saw were dead.” (General Sheridan)

“The Indian races are more seriously threatened with a speedy extermination that ever before in the history of the country.” (Donehogawa - first Indian commission of Indian Affairs)

“As for Lt. Whitman, his unpopular defense of Apaches destroyed his military career. He survived three court-martials on ridiculous charges, and after several more years of service without promotion he resigned.

“You take away soldiers, you give us back our land.” (Captain Jack/Modocs)





1. Was there anything in this book that made you say, “I never knew that.”?
2. What impact did the white’s technology have on the tribes?
3. Was Sheridan’s ruthless statement about “the only good Indians I ever saw were dead” an accurate representation of the white’s basic attitude toward Indians?
4. Did Donehogawa’s fate suggest that no Indian could remain in a position of power during this time?
5. Did the acquittal of the Tucson killers prove that an Indians’ rights would not be recognized in the US justice system?
6. What did the treatment of Captain Jack’s body say about attitudes toward Indians?

[Deleted]

I’d like to ask a question. This is not meant to be judgey. Quite the opposite.

I understand why many have not read or not finished with this book. I totally get it.

That said, would it be better if I stop posting the questions? While there’s nothing to truly spoil this book, as we generally know what happened, my posts still provide information that you would not know until you got that far in the book.

Or, do you want to see the questions but not my answers. It’s feels a bit arrogant to post my questions and my answers when people generally aren’t ready?

What would you all prefer?

[bernelli]

Personally, I'm fine with all/any discussions and questions even though I'm behind in my reading. The conversations are helping me turn the pages.

[bernelli]

I feel like my "I never knew that" actually happened on our family trip to South Dakota (I mentioned previously). There was so much "I never knew that" then. I don't know all the history today and even after reading this book I still won't.

My biggest problem with this stuff is the awful attitude... For instance, the statement about not knowing an Indian could cry is so infuriating and it's just that same fucking attitude -- black people are dumb, women shouldn't vote because they're too emotion (or any other reason), fat people are lazy...there are more. I fucking hate these idiotic generalizations.
...and then I get stuck and need to take a break.... This is also part of what's taking me so long to get through this book. Because we never fucking change.

[Deleted]

1. Was there anything in this book that made you say, “I never knew that.”?

Mr. Brown explains somewhere that the practice of taking scalps was not invented by the Indians but was brought over from Europe (I think it was Europe). I had heard ,since I was a child, that this was an Indian practice.I was stunned at that. I thought that was something i “knew”. (I’ve been researching. Theories vary. I’m inclined to believe Mr. Brown.)

2. What impact did the white’s technology have on the tribes?

The guns, initially, created ruthless unfair fights. Eventually, the government started trading with Indians and provided them some guns. That surprised me. With all the unfair treatment and lies they peddled to the Indians, I was surprised to learn that they ever gave them guns, even if they were issues with the intent being to hunt.

The railroads baffled the Indians. They thought they were houses on wheels. And this just brought the white man and his ways faster and faster.


Even just the white mans ability to speak and write made it possible for deceit. The Indians could only trust that what they were told were in the papers they “touched the pen to”.


3. Was Sheridan’s ruthless statement about “the only good Indians I ever saw were dead” an accurate representation of the white’s basic attitude toward Indians?

Sadly, I think so. While there were some friends of the Indians, they were only faithful until they could gain something for themself. Then they turned their backs on the tribes. I think the stories, some true, some not, led the settlers to be extremely frightened of Indian encounters. And, since most considered them animals, rather than humans, I think they would prefer them dead so they could made safe passage westward.

4. Did Donehogawa’s fate suggest that no Indian could remain in a position of power during this time?

Yes. Under his commission, (noting he took an American name, “Ely Samuel Parker”) the US experienced fewer problems with westward expansion and less complaints from the tribes. However, politics and corruption crept in and Donehogawa was accused of fraud. He was quickly removed from office. His enemies suggested he was “but a remove from barbarism”.

5. Did the acquittal of the Tucson killers prove that an Indians’ rights would not be recognized in the US justice system?
This was such a fixed trial. Even the white men who defended the rights of the Apaches were hated for defending them.

6. What did the treatment of Captain Jack’s body say about attitudes toward Indians?

I’ll let you read about this. It’s unbelievable.

[peacemama]

Arriving late to the discussion. @fairazzbueller, Thanks for facilitating. Here are some of my responses to a few of your questions.

I first read this book in high school and similar to honeybzzzs it has lingered with me through the decades. I remember feeling so sad with the first reading. This time my heart once again was heavy throughout at the injustices, and I also found myself reflecting on global historical parallels.

I was raised in a family that prides itself as being descendants of Oregon Trail pioneers. My great grandparents were cattle ranchers in Eastern Oregon and my grandfather owned timber land and a lumber mill in the Cascades. I remember how upset my mom was when, after reading Bury My Heart as a teenager, I mentioned my thoughts on Manifest Destiny--that our family lands were stolen from the tribes and it wasn't honorable that we "owned" them.

I currently live east of Seattle on the land of the Duwamish. I'm retired, but when I was a K-12 Arts Teaching & Learning Specialist, I opened all arts meetings and trainings with a land acknowledge. www.duwamishtribe.org/land-acknowledgement

[peacemama]

On the topic of land stewardship... Deb Haaland is the 54th United States Secretary of the Interior. Long overdue. I hope the Interior Department's priorities come to fruition.

[Deleted]

Thank you peacemama for bringing a little beauty to this thread. My knowledge on this subject is so limited, I just don’t know how.

[Deleted]

DAY 3

1. Why do you think the white settlers were so flippant and wasteful about the killing of the buffalo?

2. What, if anything were you taught about Custer? How does that hold up after reading this book?

3. Old Chief Joseph of the Nez Perces tribe (named by the French meaning Pierced Nose) treated the white’s well and desired peace and friendship. His tribe met the 1805 Lewis and Clark’s (gravely ill and starving) expedition team and provided them with food, rest and cared for their horse while they continued the expedition. For over 70 years the whites and the Nez Perces lived in peace. In 1855, the tides turned and the governor of the Washington territory began to lay claim to the tribes land. In 1871, the chief’s son, Young Joseph became chief upon his fathers death. Soon, infantry men attacked the tribe, while they rode under a white flag on their way to a hunt. The Nez Perces had sent word that they intended to do the hunt but would pass by without fighting. Who was more savage and uncivilized? The Indians or the whites?

4. The Cheyenne, like many tribes wanted to stay where they could maintain their subsistence way of life. But, instead, the government pushed them to harsh lands with little wildlife and non producing soil. What do you think caused the whites to feel like it was ok to push the Indians into such dire circumstances?

5. In 1879, Standing Bear of the Ponco tribe, won his legal case and was declared a person, the same as any white man. General Sherman, quickly decreed that the case did not confer civil rights on any other Indian other than Standing Bear. There were a few individuals who recognized the blatant mistreatment of the Indians. Why do you think, even today, many Indian’s plight remains basically unchanged?

[Deleted]

To add a little lightness (to the thread, not the subject matter)…I loved some of the Indian names. I imagined how some were bestowed with great pride and some maybe with a little teasing whimsy.

Dull Knife
Kicking Bird
Lean Bear
Old Man Afraid of His Horses


But my favorite is Tatanka-Iyotanka… Sitting Bull

[peacemama]

@fairazzbueller Your query about Custer took me to a related thought:
When learning US history, it's vital to include the perspectives and voices of Native people.

When I was an elementary teacher, I partnered with the University of Washington's Burke Museum to help refine their elementary education program. One way I did that was by field testing cultural discovery kits. One of the kits guides students through Lewis and Clark's explorations from the perspective of the Native people they met along the way. That's a different viewpoint than the one shared in Lewis and Clark's journals, which is often the information included by publishers in social studies curricula.

I love the Burke Museum. If you ever are in the Seattle area, it's worth a visit. Their collection is amazing. It was one of my favorite places to take students on field trips.

Here's a peek at the Burke's Discovery Kits. www.burkemuseum.org/education/educators-and-schools/burke-boxes

[Deleted]

DAY 3

1. Why do you think the white settlers were so flippant and wasteful about the killing of the buffalo?

This impacted me greatly. So, here were these tribes who used every freaking part of the buffalo, showing respect for the fact that they killed them. They ate the meat and made clothes and shelter from the hide. The bones were used for jewelry and tools. They felt a kinship with the animal because it represented their lifestyle of roaming free across the land.

Not in the book, but from another source, I discovered that some of the trains would promise free dressing of the animal if someone on the train killed one. They stopped the train in herds and allowed passengers to shot them. Mainly, they took them for their hide and left the meat to rot. As time passed, white travelers just killed them for sport.

So disrespectful to, both, the Indians and the animals.



2. What, if anything were you taught about Custer? How does that hold up after reading this book?

Again, I researched a bit and this is not in the book. As a child I learned from movies, books and even some elementary history classes, that he was a highly regarded soldier. They didn’t tell us he was court martialed twice. He graduated last in his class at West Point. Most of the glorious books written about him, impacting history, were written by his wife, after his death. She managed to create a myth that stayed with us for a long time.

3. Old Chief Joseph of the Nez Perces tribe (named by the French meaning Pierced Nose) treated the white’s well and desired peace and friendship. His tribe met the 1805 Lewis and Clark’s (gravely ill and starving) expedition team and provided them with food, rest and cared for their horse while they continued the expedition. For over 70 years the whites and the Nez Perces lived in peace. In 1855, the tides turned and the governor of the Washington territory began to lay claim to the tribes land. In 1871, the chief’s son, Young Joseph became chief upon his fathers death. Soon, infantry men attacked the tribe, while they rode under a white flag on their way to a hunt. The Nez Perces had sent word that they intended to do the hunt but would pass by without fighting. Who was more savage and uncivilized? The Indians or the whites?

The fighting was, of course, horrendous on both sides. But, the US treated the Indians so unfairly that they really had no other means to save themselves than by engaging. The lies and deceit perpetrated by the whites could not be stopped any other way. No attempt was made to try to deal fairly and share the land with the Indians.

4. The Cheyenne, like many tribes wanted to stay where they could maintain their subsistence way of life. But, instead, the government pushed them to harsh lands with little wildlife and non producing soil. What do you think caused the whites to feel like it was ok to push the Indians into such dire circumstances?

It is clear to me that they wanted the Indians to be dead. To go away forever and not be a problem for settling the west. The illness and death that took place on those reservations were inhumane.

5. In 1879, Standing Bear of the Ponco tribe, won his legal case and was declared a person, the same as any white man. General Sherman, quickly decreed that the case did not confer civil rights on any other Indian other than Standing Bear. There were a few individuals who recognized the blatant mistreatment of the Indians. Why do you think, even today, many Indian’s plight remains basically unchanged?

Some Indians have escaped their fate but I think that is only because they turn their back on their tribe. If I’m wrong, please tell me. If you stay with your tribe on the federal lands, you are poor, undernourished, and you have become more of a spectacle than a “family”. I need to research this more but I think citizenship was granted to Indians, only if they accepted the limits of certain land grants.

[honeybzzzs]

And the land grab continues to this day.

A Federal Court Judge just ruled that BSNF “Intentionally Violated Terms of Easement” with the Swinomish Tribe.

There was a recent train derailment on Swinomish Tribal Land, near Padilla Bay, Washington. It dumped 3100 gallons of diesel fuel.

The agreement was that trains could run through their land. But only twice a day, and no more than 25 cars per train. Also, contents of train cars were to be disclosed to the Tribe so they could be aware of what the trains were carrying and the Tribe would have the chance to agree or disagree with contents.

It didn’t take long for BSNF to violate all the agreements, for the sake of profit. And now there is a huge mess right along side the fishing and shellfish area that these people use.

It just never ends. Heavy Sigh….

[Deleted]

Day 4

Red Cloud’s War

I’ll be traveling tomorrow so I’ll post for tomorrow now, too.

Red Cloud was a chief ( Oglala Sioux) who was known for his resistance to the whites and their land grabs. According to historical sources other than this book, over time, Red Cloud and his family became Catholic and lived out their lives on a reservation. (So much to analyze in that sentence.)

During his life, many tribes and chiefs joined with Red Cloud to stop the whites from taking over the Powder River country. (NE Wyoming) By joining tribes, the Indians were able to patrol and push back on the army and civilians as they entered the area. Red Cloud was successful in holding the line.

The army soon realized that they might push their westward expansion plans ahead faster if they left the Powder River country to the Indians, in exchange for peace in the Platt Valley (South Central Nebraska). The Platt Valley was a flat area that was easy to traverse by wagon trains for settlers. And, this was where the US was building railroads. After the persistent tribes, attacked a train, killed the passengers and set the train on fire with it’s own coals, the army agreed to close all forts in the Powder River country. This was attributed to Red Clouds leadership, strength, and persistence.

Quote:

“For the next twenty years, however, the contents of the other sixteen articles of that treaty of 1868 would remain a matter of dispute between the Indians and the government of the United States. What many of the chiefs understood was in the treaty and what was actually written therein after Congress ratified it were like two horses whose colorations did not match” Dee Brown

I don’t have questions for today. Please discuss whatever you would like.




DAY 5

I’m traveling today. So, please use this day to discuss Sitting Bull, his life and death. If anyone can expound on the Ghost Dance, I would love to hear about it. Seemed so odd how that was almost a joining of Christianity and the spirituality of the Indians. And, why did that dance scare the whites so badly? And foremost, let’s discuss the massacre at Wounded Knee.

Quote

“When the torn and bleeding bodies were carried into the candlelit church, those who were conscious could see Christmas greenery hanging from the open rafters. Across the chancel front above the pulpit was strung a crudely lettered banner: PEACE ON EARTH, GOOD WILL TO MEN.”

Thanks to you all for participating and for being patient with my leadership. I’ve got to tell you that the book broke my heart but the researching and daily preparation was emotionally exhausting. This is a very important book but as someone else said, “Once is enough”.

A note, there is a movie on HBO called Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. I can’t say that it was particularly well done as it really only started with the capture of Sitting Bull. And in an effort to show how the Indians were expected to adopt white ways, it focuses largely on Charles Eastman, who was not mentioned in the book. While Eastman story is also important, I just felt like it detracted from the movie’s depiction of Brown’s work. But, it is available if you want to see it.

[Deleted]

This is the speech Red Cloud gave after the massacre at Wounded Knee:

RED CLOUD'S SPEECH

“I will tell you the reason for the trouble. When we first made treaties with the
Government, our old life and our old customs were about to end; the game on which we lived was disappearing; the whites were closing around us, and nothing remained for us but to adopt their ways,-the Government promised us all the means necessary to make our living out of the land, and to instruct us how to do it, and with abundant food to support us until we could take care of ourselves. We looked forward with hope to the time we could be as independent as the whites, and have a voice in the Government.

The army officers could have helped better than anyone else but we were not left to them. An Indian Department was made with a large number of agents and other officials drawing large salaries-then came the beginning of trouble; these men took care of themselves but not of us. It was very hard to deal with the government through them-they could make more for themselves by keeping us back than by helping us forward.

We did not get the means for working our lands; the few things they gave us did little good. Our rations began to be reduced; they said we were lazy. That is false. How does any man of sense suppose that so great a number of people could get work at once unless they were at once supplied with the means to work and instructors enough to teach them?

Our ponies were taken away from us under the promise that they would be replaced by oxen and large horses; it was long before we saw any, and then we got very few. We tried with the means we had, but on one pretext or another, we were shifted from one place to another, or were told that such a transfer was coming. Great efforts were made to break up our customs, but nothing was done to introduce us to customs of the whites. Everything was done to break up the power of the real chiefs. Those old men really wished their people to improve, but little men, so-called chiefs, were made to act as disturbers and agitators. Spotted Tail wanted the ways of the whites, but an assassin was found to remove him. This was charged to the Indians because an Indian did it, but who set on the Indian? I was abused and slandered, to weaken my influence for good. This was done by men paid by the government to teach us the ways of the whites. I have visited many other tribes and found that the same things were done amongst them; all was done to discourage us and nothing to encourage us. I saw men paid by the government to help us, all very busy making money for themselves, but doing nothing for us. . . .

The men who counted (census) told all around that we were feasting and wasting food. Where did he see it? How could we waste what we did not have? We felt we were mocked in our misery; we had no newspaper and no one to speak for us. Our rations were again reduced. You who eat three times a day and see your children well and happy around you cannot understand what a starving Indian feels! We were faint with hunger and maddened by despair. We held our dying children and felt their little bodies tremble as their soul went out and left only a dead weight in our hands. They were not very heavy but we were faint and the dead weighed us down. There was no hope on earth. God seemed to have forgotten. Some one had been talking of the Son of God and said He had come. The people did not know; they did not care; they snatched at hope; they screamed like crazy people to Him for mercy they caught at the promise they heard He had made.

The white men were frightened and called for soldiers. We begged for life and the white men thought we wanted theirs; we heard the soldiers were coming. We did not fear. We hoped we could tell them our suffering and could get help. The white men told us the soldiers meant to kill us; we did not believe it but some were frightened and ran away to the Bad Lands. The soldiers came. They said: "don't be afraid-we come to make peace, not war." It was true; they brought us food. But the hunger-crazed who had taken fright at the soldiers' coming and went to the Bad Lands could not be induced to return to the horrors of reservation life. They were called Hostiles and the Government sent the army to force them back to their reservation prison.”

[sal]

I got distracted by that damn red eye back from my conference and totally forgot to get back in here. I did finish the book on the plane home. I was also surprised by the scalping was originally a European thing section. I wasn't surprised (though I was ticked) at the "only good Indian" comment. There is a reason Stephen Graham Jones titled a book that or something similar (he's a Blackfoot mostly horror author).

I'm not surprised Donehogawa got shoved out, but AM glad he was smart and invested well and ended up rich.

Mar 29, 2023 7:10:52 GMT -5 @fairazzbueller said:

What, if anything were you taught about Custer? How does that hold up after reading this book?

Amazingly, I came out of grammar school KNOWING Custer was a murderous asshole who got what he deserved. I can't imagine they truly taught us that, but I must have been good at reading between lines even as a 10-14 year old.