Jewish Musings, Wednesday November 30

[louise]

What’s on your mind — how to make kugel? This week’s Torah reading? Life goals? Prayer? We are all engaged in weight loss/weight maintenance journeys and we are all Jewish or at least interested in Judaism. We like to eat, we like to discuss. It is our goal here to provide each other support on our journeys, to share experiences, to call on our rich cultural heritage and texts, and to help each other grow spiritually.

Some of us take weekly turns starting the thread:

Angelika
Holly
Lee
Louise
Lynne
Peachy

[louise]

Here are the rest of Rav Hanan's reasons for interfaith dialogue:

3. To spread my understanding of Judaism among peoples of different faiths in order to enrich the world

a) Judaism does not believe that our religious way of life needs to be adopted by others in order for them to reach human fulfillment, but we do believe that we have insights that can be beneficial to others
b) All of Judaism should be made known to the world
c) *Historically, the majority position however, among Jewish sources and thinkers, is that only a small portion of Judaism should be disseminated to the world. Today, that majority position still holds sway in just about all of the Ultra-Orthodox Jewish community and among many in the Modern Orthodox community

4.To bring people of different religions together in mutual understanding and respect, to break down prejudice and stereotypes, to share and promote common moral truths, in order to create peace among religions and people

a) Life, human flourishing and peace are ultimate values for which we must do much, and religious leaders must do even more
b) Religion is a powerful force in global events, much more than secular politicians often admit. There can be no peace among nations and peoples until there is peace between religions, and there can be no peace between religions without dialogue
c)The work to be done is both internal – overcoming our own prejudice and fear of the other – and external - combatting anti-Semitism and anti-Judaism
d) *Parts of Jewish tradition provide a basis for seeing conflict among the religions as built into the fabric of Jewish fate, meaning that Christians and Muslims will always hate Jews, whether overtly or covertly. Christians will always try to convert us and Muslims will always want to kill us. Dialogue is therefore at the best worthless. Further, it is dangerous because it provides cover for our enemies.

5.To show Islam a model of steadfast adherence to religious tradition while integrating into modernity and democracy

6.To reach and to inspire those Jews who are not attracted to purely Jewish frameworks

[louise]

I get there are teachings in other religions against us, but it is just as true that we have texts in our bible that speak of hatred, violence, conquering every many, woman, and child and, of course, to remember (and kill) Amalek generation after generation. These are verses that may have served us in another time but they are not the verses we try to live by today. Similarly, while we can find hatred in Islamic texts but we also find in the Koran teaching about killing one person being akin to killing all of mankind and saving one person being akin to saving all mankind.

I'm just trying to say that just as we would not want the difficult parts of the torah to be how others define us we can't pick out the difficult parts of the Koran and define Muslims accordingly. To quote Rav Hanan again: The work to be done is both internal – overcoming our own prejudice and fear of the other – and external - combatting anti-Semitism and anti-Judaism.

There's a lot to be said. Once again, I'm just tossing out these ideas as a place to hang our thoughts on. I don't expect us all to agree but perhaps by airing what we think and feel we can better understand ourselves and each other.

[lee058]

Good morning everybody. Hope you are all well today. Re interfaith communication: I have met people who had never met anyone Jewish before, and/or had negative ideas about Jews. In a way, I feel like every communication with someone non-Jewish is a way to get them acquainted with Jewish ideas, voluntarily or involuntarily. I have had to deal with anti-Jewish remarks and attitudes, including on the job. I feel like no matter what I do or say, to some people, this will become representative of "what Jews are like." It's weird.

I'll probably write more later but I'd like to think about this first. Have a peaceful day, Lee

[gazelle18]

I was so busy yesterday, I never got here. I will give a longer reply to all of this later today, after I have had had time to go back and read yesterday's thread! Great topic!!!

[hollygail]

Yesterday, I told you about two women who toured the US. Here's one news item about it. Yes, the Arab woman was Islamic.
ufdc.ufl.edu/AA00010090/03128/20j
I heard them when I was living in Tucson.
I'll BBL

[savtele]

Boker Tov All!
I have found that many discussions can be informed by a Jewish point of view. In the same way that my bringing my Judaism into the discussion might be helpful, someone else bringing their Islam into the discussion will also be helpful. Add a Sikh or Buddhist POV to that - and suddenly we are less isolated in our beliefs!

I also believe that the current political climate almost DEMANDS that we allow ourselves to enter into discussion. The USA, IMHO, is headed down a dangerous road, unless we all Speak Up Now! Islamophobic memes on FB need to be de-fanged & shown for what they are. I saw a t-shirt the other day: THINK (while it's still legal)

I'm heading to the pool in a few minutes, then I'll be at the Antique Mall for a few hours (I'm learning that if I see something there I can't live without, I need to pick it up NOW, because tomorrow when I walk in it will be gone!) Then a haircut. It will be a long day!

Have a good day ladies - I'll bbl

[happysavta]

Louise, you don't have to judge Islam by the religious texts. Just open the newspaper on any day, really, on any day of the year. You'll find a story about Islam-inspired terrorism, acts of gut-wrenching brutality and violence, in every country,including the U.S., on every continent. Judge Islam by the actions of its followers.

Judaism aims to inspire respect for the commandments of G-d and create a just society among men. Christianity aims to inspire love of G-d and all his children into a social model. What does Islam inspire in its followers in our modern world? The proof is in the pudding. Any religion that could spawn Isis and terrorism needs internal reform badly, right now. They have to do it for themselves and by themselves. Thinking that we will "show Islam a model of steadfast adherence to religious tradition while integrating into modernity and democracy" is naiveté.

[gazelle18]

I believe, always, in keeping the lines of communication open, and developing relationships with all our neighbors, including Muslims. The more knowledge that we can share, the more understanding there will be. Is there some naïveté here? Perhaps. Is it the entire solution? No. is it a small step we can all take? Yes, I think so.

[peachymom1]

I've recommended this book before, but I will again. I strongly recommend that you read "The Muslim Next Door: The Qur'an, the Media, and that Veil Thing" by Sumbul Ali-Karamali. It's quite an eye-opener.

Frieda makes points that we can't deny. The Muslim terrorists are religious fanatics. And maybe there are more of them because there are more Muslims, period. When you fail to educate your masses, you end up with ignorant, misinformed and/or ill-informed people who do terrible things in the name of religion.

This is also true of other religions. Christian history speaks for itself. As for Judaism, we certainly have had our bad apples, and as Louise pointed out, our own texts have violent sections. We simply have fewer members of our tribe to distort things and do terrible things.

So what's the answer? Learning, learning, learning. We have to learn about each other. There's just no other way. That means we have to talk to each other, get to know each other, and of course not just make unilateral attempts. We can't do the Christian "turn the other cheek" routine and just get ourselves killed, of course, but we can't ignore the importance of religion to so many people in the world, and not just in remote corners of the world, but right here in the U.S.

In all my years of reading and studying world religions (including Judaism), I have always found it fascinating that textbooks and newspapers often paint very different pictures of the same religions. How do we know what's really true? How do we answer people who challenge us? Do we know enough about our own religion to be able to answer questions?

When Christians ask me why I don't believe in Jesus, I tell them I don't believe in original sin, so I don't need Jesus to redeem me from it. Many, many times, they don't know what I'm talking about. "What's original sin?" is their next question. And from there we go onward. If they do know what original sin is, and they try to convince me that I should believe in it, I usually shift the conversation to how belief affects behavior. Rabbi Schulweis (z"l) used to use the phrase "lachen" ("therefore"), as in, you believe such-and-so, therefore what? You believe in Jesus, so how does that make you behave? Does it make you loving and kind? Does it teach you to be tolerant, helpful and generous to people who are hurting and hungry? What does your faith/church/community do to improve the world? Many Christians don't know about Judaism's strong emphasis on behavior over belief, and this comes as a surprising direction to them.

I think I'm rambling now, so I'll shut up for now, but I'll BBL. I appreciate everyone's comments and am looking forward to more of them.

[peachymom1]

One thing I meant to add is that throughout my life, I'm amazed at how many people do not ask questions about religion, even their own. I love it when people ask me questions about Judaism, and I've gotten some interesting ones over the years. And I find that once people realize that for Jews, asking questions is a wonderful thing, they have lots more questions. I love this. And I love Judaism. Throughout decades now of being a practicing Jew, I find that it is a religion with a heart, with great love and compassion, and I want people to know more about it. I'm not trying to convert them, just answer their questions and help them learn about us.

[happysavta]

So, dear chaverot, how about thinking through or if you like, commenting on a variation of what Peachy wrote about Christians.

Muslims:
They believe in Allah and his Prophet Mohammad, so how does that make them behave?
Does it make them loving and kind?
Does it teach them to be tolerant, helpful and generous to people who are hurting and hungry? What does their faith/church/community do to improve the world?

[peachymom1]

I know a lovely young Muslim woman who believes in Allah and his Prophet Mohammad, and it makes her behave like a respectful, kind, loving, delightful human being. She believes God wants her to be a good person, and that this is the primary teaching of Islam. She is a delight, and I am privileged to know her.

[peachymom1]

I know another Muslim (a coworker, actually), who is not religious at all, but is close to his family who is religious. He is a fine example of love, kindness, tolerance and generosity. He has a great sense of humor and goes out of his way to help people. He says he's not religious because he's not interested in praying five times a day or going to a mosque, but he does say that God wants him to be a good person and that this is the central teaching of Islam. Hm.

[peachymom1]

From above:
"*Parts of Jewish tradition provide a basis for seeing conflict among the religions as built into the fabric of Jewish fate, meaning that Christians and Muslims will always hate Jews, whether overtly or covertly. Christians will always try to convert us and Muslims will always want to kill us. Dialogue is therefore at the best worthless. Further, it is dangerous because it provides cover for our enemies."

I have to comment on this. I can't believe that all Christians and Muslims will always hate Jews. That has not been my experience. Nor can I believe that all Christians will always try to convert us; this hasn't been my experience either. Plenty do, yes, but certainly not all, and I've known many Christians who respected my difference of religion. One evangelical Christian even told me that Jews are the first ones to go to heaven. I haven't known that many Muslims, but I can't believe they all want to kill us either. Maybe a lot of them do, but those Muslims also seem to want to kill a lot of other people too, including their own children.

I don't like the idea of simply assuming that everyone hates us and wants to destroy us. If every human being is created in the image of God, then surely there is hope that all people can learn to be more Godly.

[happysavta]

Peachy, at that life-threatening moment of encountering a rabid animal, you're going to stop and ask all those questions? Really? Honestly, I'd shoot the dog or beat him to death before he bites me or mine.

Then we can hang around the fireplace and figure out that the rabies came from a squirrel in the tree in your yard. And once we do, fine, let's go shoot the squirrel that infected him too.

It doesn't matter that the once healthy dog was a sweet puppy and is not to blame for contracting rabies; I'm sad for the loss of someone's precious pet. I love dogs, remember? But he has to be killed. Sure, people are working on a cure for rabies, but until it's actually here, you have to preserve your life.

[hollygail]

<<...To quote Rav Hanan again: The work to be done is both internal — overcoming our own prejudice and fear of the other — and external — combatting anti-Semitism and anti-Judaism...>> I couldn't agree more.

[happysavta]

And I know a young man who believed in the greatness of Allah (Allahu Akbar) and put a bomb in the Hebrew University cafeteria that blew up a lovely 24 year old woman who was in the same class as my daughter and lived just a few blocks from us in San Diego. Her name was Marla Bennett. She was scheduled to come home the next day to announce her engagement.

We all know good and bad individuals of all faiths. Here's the difference:

If a Christian takes a knife and chops off someone's head or burns them alive, he's not going to be canonized. If a Jew takes a truck and deliberately smashes into a crowd of innocent people, he will be repudiated by every sect of Judaism. He won't be held up as an example of a mentch.

The problem is that if a Muslim kills a non-Muslim, he gets a party and a poster and fame and glory and the admiration of his family and community, and in some cases, his family even gets a monetary reward. He is called a martyr to the faith, not a murderer. He is encouraged to carry out heinous acts and is told he will go directly to Heaven, be welcomed by Allah, and be pleasured by 72 virgins.

Once again, I'm not saying that all Muslims are hate-filled or that the Koran is permeated with so much violence that, as a religion, it can only damage people. I'm simply saying that Islam needs to reform itself and revise its interpretations and teachings away from the seeds that sprout hatred, intolerance, and brutality. And they should continue until Islam stops producing terrorists and produces only people like the ones Peachy knows. That's when we'll be able to live in peace.