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Post by moosishun on Aug 9, 2017 22:49:22 GMT -5
I'm going to start Day 4 a little early because I am going to be at the hospital all day tomorrow with mr. moo.
DAY 4:
How's about that trial? Any thoughts you had? What were the factors that worked in favor of the "little people"? Did you think it was going to end up that way? Why or why not?
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Post by balancedlife on Aug 10, 2017 0:40:11 GMT -5
Coming in late on the day three topic.
I agree that, over the years, there has been progress on many fronts. It was interesting to read about the past presidents who were instrumental in making those changes stick. Changes which took blood, sweat, and tears to accomplish became the law of the land. Very nice.
A big difference now is that I feel we have a president who is undoing many of those changes (which were made for the betterment of all) by understaffing and/or by cutting funding to various agencies protective of people and of the environment.
It seems to me that big business will still cut corners and cheat in their pursuit of the almighty dollar. And it seems like they often still get away with it. Sometimes for years. Plus, the people at the top still are so rarely punished!
When it comes to immigrants, the willingness to demonize an entire group is still happening and it remains horrifying. How can we not see that this simply ramps up the fury on all sides? And I cannot buy the theory that humans always want someone on whom they can spit and step. We are better than that!
I am sick unto death at the treatment of the poor. Warehousing, blaming, cutting support systems, ignoring mistreatment of all sorts, etc. That crap is still happening and it is hateful and shames us all.
Sigh. Because of the escalating of the North Korea crisis, I am in the most vile mood. Maybe tomorrow I will be able to see more progress and a better future.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2017 6:48:09 GMT -5
I think the things that helped the people were these facts; No one wrote specifications for that tank. Jell painted the tank to disguise the leak. There were no unbroken windows which would have resulted from an explosion. I was so disappointed in the settlement awards. Some of those people suffered for the rest of their lives. My today, in the office, is like yesterday. I'll try read and follow along as I can. moosishun. Hope things go well today.
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Post by moosishun on Aug 10, 2017 6:49:49 GMT -5
I was not expecting the trial to be very interesting to me, but it was! Actually, I got a better perspective of Bugliosi's trial section in his book. Man, talk about LONG beginnings and endings!! And for a judge to have to sift through all of that - honestly, it would have been beyond me.
I think USIA was bereft of any type of ethics what with their slick lawyer who kept pushing the anarchists planting a bomb throughout. They were hoping that the hype of the day would lead to a slam-dunk in their favor. And they had a wonderful lawyer who would have won on any other day with any other judge and against any other lawyer. It just seems like the absolutely right people were both in the judge's seat and defending those that were hurt.
$1500 in 1919 would equal about $22,000 in today's economy. It would have paid about a year's worth of wages. How do you feel about that as a "fair share" and the fact that it took about 10 years to get all that figured out?
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Post by moosishun on Aug 10, 2017 7:04:49 GMT -5
Okay, so I looked up a bit more and:
There were about 125 lawsuits filed and the company eventually had to fork over one million dollars, but the trickle-down to the ones hurt came to about $1500. It took about 6 months to finish cleaning up. More info later.
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Post by bernelli on Aug 10, 2017 8:02:58 GMT -5
Moosi, I hope all goes well for Mr. Moosi today. Good thoughts!!
I'm looking forward to the conversation about this trial, because in all complete honesty, this part of the book was impossible for me to get through. I skimmed so much that there is very little retention.
Here's what I remember: - Jell's honesty surprised me. After watching him cut corners and lie to people and think only of his own skin, I seriously thought he'd try to lie his way out of this... oath or no oath. I found him to be despicable... his honesty redeemed himself somewhat, however, I felt he was no sympathetic to the plight that he caused to the families.
- this trial took 10 years. WTH? that's awful. I was surprised about that.
- court is boring.
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Post by moosishun on Aug 10, 2017 8:21:56 GMT -5
I am just so amazed that the exact right people far above reproach with the intention of being honest to all were the ones that made all the difference in this trial. The main players (2 main lawyers and the judge) all had respect for each other. It is interesting that the lawyer for the people who were affected would call friends and say "You need to give your time and be of service in this most important case" and they did! Much like Mueller has gotten his very good well-respected legal friends to do the same exact thing.
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Post by bumblebuzz21 on Aug 10, 2017 8:28:05 GMT -5
The fact that it wasn't even really the "trial" and could have gone on to another one just blows my mind. The judge thought he was going to need 6 weeks and it took FOREVER. And we don't really know how much everyone got, right? The judge made those suggestions and then the prosecuting attorney said they were way too low and then they settled out of court.
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Post by mcmoff on Aug 10, 2017 9:15:16 GMT -5
I didn't have time to check in yesterday, so I'll answer yesterday's & today's question.
As to the political - and social comparison to now & then - things have changed, but then again they have not.
There are more rules for businesses to follow, but even today they do all they can to not follow them or skirt around the edges. And when they are found responsible for whatever atrocity that they are done, the people that are in charge are not held accountable. The best we can do it "fine" the business, but Mr (or Mrs.) CEO, lives on in their cushy life. That makes frustrated, especially when the little person's life is ruined, either due to illness or monetary (home, or the ability to continue to earn their way) losses.
And the way we as a society treat immigrants - I think we try to do better, but getting to know & accepting those different is still a struggle for most of us. And it's easy to lump everyone that scares us in the same category - not all terrorist look the same, but that's easy for people - even up to the top of our Gov - to go with that thought. I find that sad, scary - as one day I may be in that "bad" group. So I look inward, and do my best to give people a chance, one on one, and not lump them into a group. Changing my neighbor's actions, that is harder - like trying to get them to lose weight - not happening unless they decide to do so.
The trail was interesting. The dollar awards seemed small, even with 1920's dollars. But it took too long - those injured can wait years for any settlement. And the fact that the lawyer gets his cut - usually it's a % of the winnings, isn't it? - makes the money that actually goes to the injured even less. I too was surprised how honest Jell was. I would expect him to lie more, or not be so forthcoming. Either he had not a clue how his actions resulted in the tank's collapse or he just didn't lie - maybe he didn't follow up, wasn't vocal when there was a problem, but under oath - he wasn't a liar! No wonder the companies lawyer did all they could to keep him from testifying - they knew what he would say!
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Post by balancedlife on Aug 10, 2017 11:39:34 GMT -5
I can't explain it, but I was fascinated by the trial stuff. Maybe it had to do with my admiration for Ogden. I loved reading how he so carefully planned and executed his approach to doing right by the people who suffered so much.
Wow! I am still in the ugliest and saddest of moods, so I think that I had best just read today. Please, please write lots of comments for me, okay?
ETA: Hall. Hall, Hall, Hall, dammit! Extreme admiration for Ogden, too, of course. But I meant Hall, the lawyer for the "little" people.
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Post by crewer on Aug 10, 2017 12:48:54 GMT -5
I, too, loved the trial part. Yea for Hall being so conscientious. He really made Jell's testimony "jump off the page." I'm amazed Jell didn't have to testify in person. Thank goodness that MIT prof went down and measured bits of the scrap and wrote a report on it. That's how they figured out the plates were thinner than specified, right? Thank goodness the vets who had worked on explosives during the war were there to testify they didn't hear an actual explosion. They seemed to value testimony of "higher class" men more than testimony of the others. I guess that is in line with the low awards to the working class guys.
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Post by moosishun on Aug 11, 2017 6:51:15 GMT -5
DAY FIVE:
This has been great, as always!
If a similar disaster were to happen today, how do you think the lawsuits, trial, courtroom proceedings, and public reaction would differ from what happened in Dark Tide?
Also, before we take this thing to its last rodeo:
Dark Tide looks at major historical issues of the day through the prism of the molasses flood: the anarchist movement, immigration, World War I, etc. How much did you know about these topics? Did the book help you learn — or learn more — about these issues?
(both questions courtesy of Stephen Puleo his own bad self)
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Post by OwlGreen68 on Aug 11, 2017 7:40:56 GMT -5
There would be wild outrage if that happened today....but still, no substantial repercussions against the owners/operators/manufacturers. See - Upper Big Branch and Sago mine disasters, Enron scandal, etc etc etc. Basically, those occurrences now serve to teach other corporations how to avoid getting caught.
Each new immigrant group is despised (and often abused) until they either assimilate or are replaced by a new group. Irish, Italian, Mexican, Iraqi....makes no difference. That much I know, although I do need to read more history.
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Post by moosishun on Aug 11, 2017 7:58:52 GMT -5
If this were the mortgage fiasco with the banks, I would have lost my house. Years later I would have found out that finally somebody noticed that this was a big fat racket, people would have been able to have saved their homes from those creeps, FrontLine would have had a big fat special on it and I would've been able to watch it on my I-pad whilst I was sitting on the sidewalk wondering where I could move with 4 people, 2 pianos and a big dog.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2017 8:00:34 GMT -5
it doesn't feel like we've come very far. For political and human shortcoming reasons, this book just exhausted me.
I did not know about the anarchists. That drove me to google.
Thank you moose for leading.
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Post by moosishun on Aug 11, 2017 8:17:43 GMT -5
I honestly was surprised at how important molasses was to the national economy up until after WWI. I also looked up to see whatever happened to USIA and I saw that it most probably merged with Equistar Chemical Company.
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Post by mcmoff on Aug 11, 2017 9:46:29 GMT -5
I think that if a similar event happened today, the results would have been similar. Big news story - trial - small awards to the victims, and the people running the company would go on as usual.
I did learn more about that era reading the book. My grandfather was in WWI - he had passed by the time I was born, so I just heard his stories through my dad - who was born in 1914. He was in CA though, grew up during the 20's in was into adulthood in the 1930's. I wonder if he remembers this event - he too is gone, so I can't ask!
What makes me the most sad is that we as a society haven't seemed to learn at all from History. I always thought we study history to learn from the past - it doesn't seem to be working does it - as we repeat what happened before again & again. New circumstance, but the same reasoning & the same results.
I think I'll read a nice cheery book next - off to a camping trip next week and my Kindle is loaded - reading & hiking - far, far away! I'll save Radium Girls for when I get back!
Thanks for letting me join you - it's been fun. I read a book I never would have picked up otherwise - actually 2 - counting Crooked House.
I liked Crooked House better!
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Post by moosishun on Aug 11, 2017 10:40:56 GMT -5
I had no idea the Anarchists were such a dangerous group either.
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Post by crewer on Aug 11, 2017 12:10:35 GMT -5
I think the Deepwater Horizon blowout comes closest to a company disaster and in that case they put someone in charge of making payouts before everything was adjudicated. I think these days any trial for damages would last years and years so putting a reputable person in charge of making payouts makes sense.
I sort of thought the little guys who lost homes in the recent foreclosure crises really haven't gotten anything unless they had some reason to sue on an individual basis. DH was on the jury for a civil suit where a woman sued and won against a bank that really screwed her over. She didn't actually lose the house but the bank so mismanaged her inquiries and late payments that the jury awarded her money for pain and suffering. I hope she got it.
I was surprised about the anarchists even though I sort of knew about Sacco and Vanzetti. I also didn't know molasses was so important to New England. I knew Caribbean sugar was one of the legs of the slave trade but I didn't realize much of it was in the form of molasses.
I recently saw a documentary about Wilson and WW 1 (on PBS) so I think I was up to speed on that. I also saw a documentary some time ago (again on PBS) about Italian immigrants who came after Irish immigrants. As in the book, it said Italians were considered to be much lower class; they had to build their own churches because other Catholics (particularly Irish) wouldn't consider going to church with them; etc.
Interesting book but I am also ready for some lighter reading!
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Post by crewer on Aug 11, 2017 12:13:36 GMT -5
I think the Deepwater Horizon blowout comes closest to a company disaster and in that case they put someone in charge of making payouts before everything was adjudicated. I think these days any trial for damages would last years and years so putting a reputable person in charge of making payouts makes sense. I wonder whatever happened after the Bhopal disaster (besides Union Carbide going out of business - or actually breaking apart into myriad daughter businesses). I sort of thought the little guys who lost homes in the recent foreclosure crisis really haven't gotten anything unless they had some reason to sue on an individual basis. DH was on the jury for a civil suit where a woman sued and won against a bank that really screwed her over. She didn't actually lose the house but the bank so mismanaged her inquiries and late payments that the jury awarded her money for pain and suffering. I hope she got it. I was surprised about the anarchists even though I sort of knew about Sacco and Vanzetti. I also didn't know molasses was so important to New England. I knew Caribbean sugar was one of the legs of the slave trade but I didn't realize much of it was in the form of molasses. I recently saw a documentary about Wilson and WW 1 (on PBS) so I think I was up to speed on that. I also saw a documentary some time ago (again on PBS) about Italian immigrants who came after Irish immigrants. As in the book, it said Italians were considered to be much lower class; they had to build their own churches because other Catholics (particularly Irish) wouldn't consider going to church with them; etc. Interesting book but I am also ready for some lighter reading!
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Post by crewer on Aug 11, 2017 12:16:03 GMT -5
Moosi - I knew a guy who worked as a hospital administrator for years. When he had surgery he said he always had someone with him in order to make sure he got what he needed and especially to make sure he got the right stuff (meds). Hope your DH recovers soon.
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Post by honeybzzzs on Aug 11, 2017 14:02:53 GMT -5
Well shoot-a-roons, I answered todays questions, and they didn't show up. Now I'm off to the land of no internet.
Enjoyed the book and the comments. Have a nice weekend ladies. Thanks again for leading the talk Moosi. Great as always.
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Post by balancedlife on Aug 11, 2017 19:52:59 GMT -5
I learned so much history from the book and the author wove that history so well into what was happening in the book's present. I liked that aspect very much! I sometimes forget that a present day event usually has roots buried deeply in the past and that what is happening today will likely affect events far into the future. Sad to say that I fear events today will have a horrid effect on our future for many years to come.
Concerning similar disasters happening today, I worry that there hasn't been enough change. I blathered on about this topic in a previous post or two, so will just add a couple of thoughts. I know that Big Corps are fighting class action suits which means that it is more and more difficult for individuals to pursue justice since justice, sad to say, can be very, very expensive. Although unions have had a troubled history, union busting is another way of controlling the lowly workers and is just wrong. Keeping people poorly educated also helps to keep people quiet in many instances. And the fact that the people at the top of Big Corps can still walk away without punishment suggests to me that businesses will continue to do whatever they can get away with to fill their coffers.
But the gutting of government bodies whose stated mission is the good of the people and the environment is one of the worst and most terrifying and most upsetting issues to me. At both the federal and the state levels.
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Post by moosishun on Aug 11, 2017 21:50:07 GMT -5
I have Lilac Girls and I may be sorely disappointed. It starts like an old silly romance novel.
AND IT IS LONG.
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Post by peacemama on Aug 12, 2017 0:26:43 GMT -5
moosishun Thanks for leading this week's discussion of Dark Tide. You always do a splendid job!
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