sal
This space for rent
Posts: 13,597
|
Post by sal on Dec 19, 2018 6:20:00 GMT -5
I don't think Wargrave had any self-awareness of what a jackass he was, and how he more than likely did send innocent people to jail (or possibly to death) because of his ego. So I hated him, even if I wasn't super-sympathetic to any of the rest of them. I wonder if some of these people were chosen because of cases that had gotten away from him (again, ego) and they had done something similar.
He was convinced he was the smartest guy in the room (and he probably was, in this particular room), and those people are generally insufferable, even when they aren't serial killers.
|
|
lee058
This space for rent
Posts: 22,802
|
Post by lee058 on Dec 19, 2018 7:12:10 GMT -5
I thought he was a cold fish, but didn't suspect him as the murderer.
|
|
|
Post by bumblebuzz21 on Dec 19, 2018 7:57:36 GMT -5
I didn't really think anything of him to be honest. I certainly did not expect him to be the murderer and master mind of the whole book.
|
|
|
Post by honeybzzzs on Dec 19, 2018 8:52:30 GMT -5
I was under the impression that all the people had, at one time, come before the court and had been acquitted. Wargrave didn’t agree with their sentencing and set out to “fix” that. Upon murdering everyone, he himself was a criminal and had to be dealt with. Thus he killed himself.
There is a leader in every group. I just thought of him as having taken on the role of the leader. So it was interesting to read this book a second time, knowing he didit and seeing his conversations as how manipulative they really were.
|
|
|
Post by ashtangi on Dec 19, 2018 9:12:33 GMT -5
I didn't suspect him. I was thinking the killer was going to be the last person standing, but I was wrong there! I thought he was obnoxious but I didn't think he was capable of setting everything up, and really, this must have involved A TON of planning and scheming. But like Sal said, I don't think it ever crossed his mind that he was wrong or thought that he didn't have the right to do what he did. He saw what "needed" to be done and did it and was smug and controlling the whole time. And he definitely wanted recognition for what he did. He could have let the investigation be unsolved, but he wrote the letter to take credit for his work. What a miserable person.
|
|
|
Post by ccToast on Dec 19, 2018 9:16:52 GMT -5
I don't think Wargrave had any self-awareness of what a jackass he was, and how he more than likely did send innocent people to jail (or possibly to death) because of his ego. So I hated him, even if I wasn't super-sympathetic to any of the rest of them. I agree with Sal in her assessment of Wargrave. I realize that my opinions are contradictory because I feel that the victims pretty much earned judgment for their own bad deeds but I also dislike Wargrave for passing that judgment. Spoiler for Murder on the Orient Express: On the other hand, I have no problem with the characters in Orient Express who take matters into their own hands.
|
|
|
Post by itsrad on Dec 19, 2018 9:19:02 GMT -5
I didn't suspect him any more or less than any of the others. However, I must admit I didn't give a whole lot of thought to any of the characters. I just found them so poorly developed and uninteresting, that I became far more interested in the "how" and how it referred back to the poem. Which I think is what AC intended.
At the end I was sure it was Vera until I read the part about the chair being moved out from under her, and then I was completely flummoxed.
|
|
|
Post by melbre on Dec 19, 2018 10:07:33 GMT -5
I agree with everything posted about him so far. I didn't really suspect him, but I now see that he took control of the situation and directed action by assuming a leadership role from the beginning.
As far as collecting his victims, I could see that he could compile a list through cases and also hearing rumors in conversation. As a judge, I'm sure he had connections to many different social circles and would learn of "unpunished crimes" in that manner.
I do think it's interesting that the murderer who was judging these victims as guilty was an actual judge. I suppose if he had the detached demeanor of a killer and spent years dispensing justice for a living, it would be easy for him to feel as though he had the "right" to punish these people. In his mind, he was perfectly suited to do so.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2018 10:12:05 GMT -5
Looking back one of the clues was the recording that listed their crimes, the charges being read in a courtroom. He also got them to search the grounds and their rooms. Vera had to get into a bathing suit to show that she had no weapons, but he wasn't searched because he was a judge, the leader, and they couldn't see a man in his position as a killer.
|
|
|
Post by cinderrose on Dec 19, 2018 10:12:52 GMT -5
I did suspect the Judge because it made sense. He was a judge - it's what he did. The other nine people had committed "crimes" that they essentially got away with. He was dolling out punishment they wouldn't have otherwise received. He was known as a "hanging judge." At the same time, I had no idea "how." I also wasn't convinced they were alone on the island. I knew what a "red herring" was but I didn't know who or what. I did consider the doctor, because the first few deaths were overdose/poison deaths and non-violent. I guess I would say I was on the right track for a bit and then just sat down in the road and let Ms. Christie show me the way, rather than figuring it out.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2018 10:24:44 GMT -5
Not only was he judge and jury, but as executioner he dispensed his "justice" to match the severity of the crime with what he thought was their guilt or remorse. The person he felt was least guilty first Mrs Rogers was killed quickly and the last being Vera who had killed a child and was driven to madness.
|
|
|
Post by balancedlife on Dec 19, 2018 11:01:42 GMT -5
then just sat down in the road That is such a great description of how I felt at a certain point! Made me laugh and laugh. I intend to use the phrase in any and every situation where I essentially give up and demand that others lead the way. And, yeah, I won't give you one word of credit -- LOL.
Gotta be gone and doing for most of today, but I look forward to more discussion here so get crackin' with your posts! This is such fun! Thank you, gemster!!
|
|
|
Post by peacemama on Dec 19, 2018 11:05:50 GMT -5
I was curious what kind of oath a 1930s judge would have taken. I couldn't find a date when these oaths were enacted, but here's what I discovered.
For England and Wales:
Judges and magistrates on being sworn in, are required by various statutes to take two oaths: the oath of allegiance and the judicial oath, (collectively; the judicial oath). Judges of Hindu, Jewish, Muslim and Sikh religions can omit the words "I swear by Almighty God" and replace it with an acceptable alternative.
Judges' first Oath of Allegiance:
I... do swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, her heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.
Judges' second Judicial Oath:
I... do swear by Almighty God that I will well and truly serve our Sovereign Lady Queen Elizabeth the Second in the office of..., and I will do right to all manner of people after the laws and usages of this realm, without fear or favour, affection or ill will. So help me God.
|
|
suby
This space for rent
Posts: 10,486
|
Post by suby on Dec 19, 2018 12:01:32 GMT -5
From a writing point of view, I wasn't thrilled with the shifting perspectives.
|
|
|
Post by gemster on Dec 19, 2018 12:27:43 GMT -5
I didn’t suspect the Judge at all, first time round I thought he might be the one to solve the mystery and find the murderer. He definitely does take on a leadership role though and through that is able to direct people where he wants them to go. I wonder what he’d have done if they hadn’t behaved exactly as planned - for example if they’d turned on each other and started killing each other much earlier, someone had committed suicide, the doctor had refused to help him or Vera hadn’t shot Lombard. Obviously AC would never have written it like that but it does seem a risk that people will behave exactly as predicted because a lot of the time they just don’t.
How he selected them does intrigue me as he definitely refers to hearing conversations (think he actually meets Hugo doesn’t he) rather than these cases coming to court & I don’t think any of them were arrested and acquitted of anything - there might have been inquests into how some of the people died (hence the gossip and rumours) but never an actual court case with a suspect on trial.
I think he might have selected them because for various reasons they were easy to lure to the island as they all seemed to rock up on the basis of extremely vague invitations, I think a lot of people would have said no or just ignored it and not turned up which would have ruined his plan completely. This bunch all seemed very rootless and transient (no families or very close friends) and nothing better to do, or in desperate financial circumstances.
|
|
|
Post by cinderrose on Dec 19, 2018 12:45:26 GMT -5
The judge did have a lot of things go his way. The fact there was a storm was very fortunate - no chance the boat would arrive early.
So, what was the back up plan if Vera failed to take the gun from Lombard? I am thinking that Lombard might have tied Vera up or locked her in a room until a boat arrived. I don't think he would have shot her. I certainly don't think the Judge could have driven Lombard to madness and suicide. He had already killed 21 people, with no remorse. The trust of the doctor was crucial but even more so the final three deaths going as planned.
|
|
Mashy
This space for rent
Posts: 15,049
|
Post by Mashy on Dec 19, 2018 13:29:42 GMT -5
AC always described the judge as veiled-eyed and neck hunched down like a turtle. That right there is villainous I tell you! I agree with feeling like the odds were nil that I’d guess the killer but I still managed to be ticked off at the end when all were dead and I was no closer. I still thought there was someone hidden in the island/in the house.
|
|
|
Post by lindarx on Dec 19, 2018 14:44:54 GMT -5
I am so sorry that I have missed this book. It came in last week the day I had a heart attack (for real). After a cardiac cath and stent, I am home. But, I have not started reading yet.
i will though and look forward to reading what everyone thinks of this book!
|
|
allie
Committed
Posts: 321
|
Post by allie on Dec 19, 2018 18:53:16 GMT -5
I am so sorry that I have missed this book. It came in last week the day I had a heart attack (for real). After a cardiac cath and stent, I am home. But, I have not started reading yet. i will though and look forward to reading what everyone thinks of this book! I hope you’re feeling much better!!
|
|
Cyn
This space for rent
Posts: 31,496
|
Post by Cyn on Dec 19, 2018 19:27:46 GMT -5
I kind of sprinkled the infield with my thoughts in the comments on various others' posts today. Oooops.
|
|
|
Post by moosishun on Dec 19, 2018 21:39:09 GMT -5
About half way through!
My favorite line of all time, possibly forever:
"There were startled and shocked ejaculations." (this was upon finding out that Mrs. Rogers had died in her sleep.)
Bwah!
Also, my gosh, the racist thoughts of Lombard at the beginning were almost too much for me. I almost threw the book down and then thought "What a perfectly detestable character", which is probably what Agatha intended for us.
|
|
|
Post by gemster on Dec 20, 2018 5:32:40 GMT -5
Day 4 on Soldier Island
What did you think of Soldier Island itself and do you think the location was important to the story? Would it have been possible for it to play out as it did in another location?
Why do you think Agatha Christie decided to have Judge Wargrave using the rhyme and the figures, as it made his job a lot harder having to fit all the murders to match. Do you think the victims could have paid more attention to the rhyme and the figures to work out what was happening, and possibly made more use of them to try and save themselves and find the killer?
|
|
Mashy
This space for rent
Posts: 15,049
|
Post by Mashy on Dec 20, 2018 7:22:47 GMT -5
I think Soldier Island itself was critical to pulling off these murders. In my mind it was pretty much a large, barren rock rising from the sea with a house tucked away, out of sight, on the sea side of the island. In other words, a place completely cut off from the sound or view of the rest of the world.
As far as the rhyme and figures, Judge Wargrave had an extremely high opinion of himself so compounding the difficulties in murdering a lot of people wouldn’t have caused him grief. Remember he said in his letter that he’d stop trials mid-stream when he “knew” the defendant was innocent? Or he swayed the jury when he “knew” the defendant was guilty. He was justice personified. He also said that killing the guilty gave him so much pleasure. He was a psychopath.
I think the victims were doomed as soon as they stepped foot into the boat to the island. I can’t imagine anyone successfully outthinking a rhyme and figurines. Not even to save their life. It’s only after the fact that you can tie the rhyme to a particular murder.
|
|
allie
Committed
Posts: 321
|
Post by allie on Dec 20, 2018 7:34:30 GMT -5
I imagine the island as sparse and completely isolated so yes I do think it was important to the story.
I think the rhyme and figures made the Judge’s job harder, but at the same time that seems to fit his personality. It does seem that maybe the other characters could have used it towards their advantage. I found myself wondering a few times why they didn’t try to preplan somehow based on the next line(s) in the rhyme.
|
|
Cyn
This space for rent
Posts: 31,496
|
Post by Cyn on Dec 20, 2018 7:40:16 GMT -5
I agree with Mashy. I also think the whiff of opportunity and mystery about the place was a bit of a draw. I think it was necessary for the isolation, and also gave AC a much larger canvas to work on for what was basically a locked room mystery.
That was why the overnight train worked so well in Orient Express. It was sheer bad luck that Poirot happened to end up on it.
ETA I'm not quite sure how you plan against being chopped in half or the bear.
|
|