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Post by ccToast on Dec 20, 2018 7:47:51 GMT -5
The remoteness of the island and the creepiness of the setting certainly enhanced the story. The fact that so many considered the possibility that the island could have been responsible for the murders through a supernatural means shows how prominent the setting was.
I do think that other locations would have worked too--somewhere remote and isolated like deep in the jungle or a post-apocalyptic, devastated area or an off-season summer camp.
Typing all of that out reminds me of the movie Identity with John Cusack, Amanda Peet, Ray Liotta where several people are trapped at a hotel during a terrible rainstorm causing s a flash flood that isolates the hotel. Then the characters turn up dead one by one (of course they do). I really enjoyed this movie and found the ending very interesting and satisfying.
Having the poem did increase the tension because the characters could be clear right away that this was the fate for each of them so that they could dread their own demise. Focusing on the poem did not help me figure out what was going on with the murders, so I don't know if that would have helped the characters. As a reader, I did go back to the poem every time someone turned up dead, and had I been a character in the story, I would have been obsessed with the poem and terrified by the prospect of what was coming next.
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lee058
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Post by lee058 on Dec 20, 2018 7:59:27 GMT -5
I agree with all that has been said already. The isolation of the island was key. AC liked that theme and used it in several books.
I don't think the people on the island really could have protected themselves much better. Brr!
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Post by gemster on Dec 20, 2018 8:06:06 GMT -5
I think the island setting was important for the ‘locked room’ scenario and the fact it was just basically a lump of rock with a house on it. The island scared the life out of me when I read the book as a kid, it just felt so sinister - though I did think it was either haunted or inhabited by a sinister cult living in underground caves. I did wonder how it would translate to another location though, would it have been as creepy if it had been a tropical island or something.
I think with the rhyme and the soldiers they could have made more use of it if they’d paid more attention, at least have set up a watch on the figures - or chucked them all into the sea. It seems a bit odd to just leave them all sitting there and ‘allow’ the killer to remove them as people were picked off.
I don’t think they could have planned for being mauled by a bear etc (though Rogers possibly should have thought chopping sticks wasn’t the greatest idea) but once they realised that the rhyme meant they would be picked off one by one they could have taken more precautions and not kept going off doing things alone, they really did play into the judges’ hands for the most part and he got lucky that they did.
And Judge Wargrave is the only one who’s specifically referred to with the law/chancery thing - I’d have thought they would have guessed by then that meant he was next and would have kept some sort of watch or guard over him which would have thwarted his plans somewhat, though I guess he still might have been able to use the doctor to get round that.
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Cyn
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Post by Cyn on Dec 20, 2018 8:53:40 GMT -5
I am thinking about the concept of Agatha Christie writing a post-apocalyptic detective story. We hadn't dropped the big bomb yet back then, so I am imagining the landscape looking somewhat like No-Man's-Land did during WWI. Murder in those underground bunkers and foxholes connected by all those passages?
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Post by ashtangi on Dec 20, 2018 9:13:01 GMT -5
I agree with everyone, the house site was key. Otherwise, they would have high tailed it out of there. I think the poem tie in is really interesting, because the first two or even three might be coincidence, but as the murders progressed, they had to realize the link. But of course with the isolated location, there was really nothing they could do even if they did realize the poems were the basis of everything. It creeps me out just thinking about how awful it must have been to be stuck on the island with no recourse.
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Post by moosishun on Dec 20, 2018 9:31:01 GMT -5
My God! They are all dead!!
(almost finished)
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Post by melbre on Dec 20, 2018 10:27:35 GMT -5
I'm just sitting here nodding in complete agreement with everything that you smart people have posted today The island setting was definitely key to his plan- total isolation, unfamiliar settings, and even an uneasy feeling of being a guest but having no idea who the mysterious host is and what they really want from the guests. Everyone had to feel a little unsettled even before the murders began. Put me in the group of those who would be obsessed with the poem and figurines after the first couple of killings. There's no way I could just sit by and go crazy waiting to be the next victim. I'd be looking at every clue in that poem to try to prevent my own demise. Of course, the way the plot was constructed, I'm sure my investigation wouldn't have helped any!
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Post by mcmoff on Dec 20, 2018 10:29:42 GMT -5
Soldier Island could have been wonderful - except for the crazy Judge and his idea of justice. So existing on a island like that is totally dependent on whom is there with you. And if you are trapped there with no way off - if you are in trouble, then you are stuck. Especially in that day - they had no phone service or any way to communicate with the outside world, other than trying to use Morse code - which is hit or miss on if anyone can see you.
And as other's have mentioned, a lot had to go the Judge's way. The storm happening and no boats being able to come there daily, unless he had arranged for the boat not to return for a week - I don't remember if he mentioned that. And having all the guest so isolated worked out perfectly for the "plan"
If I were to be on a island like that I would want a boat there - so we could leave. To be dependent on others to come out there isn't my idea of comforting. But I'm a control freak and want the power to come & go on my time.
As to the Rhyme and the figurines - that made the story more creepy. And most had the one chance to leave when the last guest arrive later than the others. They had all read that rhyme in their rooms by then - it was a sign of things to come - and no one had the gut feeling that things were weird, and if they did, they didn't listen to it.
You got to listen to your gut -
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Post by ashtangi on Dec 20, 2018 11:14:51 GMT -5
I have to say I was surprised at how much this book reminds me of the movie Clue (or the other way around, considering Clue came out 60+ years later). It's not exact but pretty similar. And much, much funnier
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Post by cinderrose on Dec 20, 2018 11:15:22 GMT -5
For the most part I found the group a bunch of dim bulbs. Rogers tried to keep the figures locked in the dining room so no one could mess with them and he was working two job and dealing with the death of his wife. Vera figured it out early asking about bees but being a hysterical female, they just slapped her and moved on. I don't know if they had paid more attention to the poem if that would have helped.
I do give them a slight pass though, even with all my cryptic remarks. They were being hunted and they were trapped on an island. Plus the cook was dead and they had to figure out how to operate a can opener in order to survive. I digress. They were more "in the moment" because one minute everyone was alive and the next someone was dead. They were so busy suspecting each other, which AC pointed out numerous times, that they didn't try to look for clues. Given the stealthy nature of the first three deaths - I kinda get that.
Actually, what creeped me out was how they kept on putting all the bodies in the bedrooms. There had to be another option, like the basement which would have been cooler. That's what I want next to my bedroom, a decomposing body. I like it so much - I think I want one on either side of me. {{shutter}}
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Post by moosishun on Dec 20, 2018 11:35:59 GMT -5
Yeah, that part about the dead bodies in their beds. For more than 24 hours. Fragrant, I tell ya!
The house on the island was most important. And yes, the Judge had already seen to it that no one would be coming by boat for a week. I think this part of it makes him look even more wicked.
I also think that the fact that Vera caught on early to the poem being the clue to the next death helped in snapping any sort of mental stability she might have had (which was not much, I think).
I am a bit irritated that if a woman is not young or part of the upper crust that she is placed down several levels of being desirable or "beautiful". Confound that Agatha.
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Post by balancedlife on Dec 20, 2018 12:43:35 GMT -5
I agree that Soldier Island itself was a vital character for the story to work. In some ways, I could visualize it more completely than some of her human characters -- LOL.
The victims were a bit slow to grasp their peril and made some foolish choices even when they did. Seriously, stay together, folks! Don't wander off and don't let anyone else wander off either!
As Mashy said, he was a psychopath and AC carefully constructed the plot so he could make events go his way. They were doomed from the get-go!
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Post by moosishun on Dec 20, 2018 12:48:50 GMT -5
I have to say that I like the comments section okay, but if we got rid of the comments, all of it would be clear to the tapa people and we might get more replies on the regular posts!! Even after the week is over!
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Post by balancedlife on Dec 20, 2018 12:59:51 GMT -5
ccToast, I love Identity! Really well constructed and surprising! Plus, it had a touch of the funny in it. I do love me some funny!! Thanks for the reminder. I think that I will see if I can view it again soon.
Dang, that must have been just a miserable shoot, what with all the wet going on.
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Post by balancedlife on Dec 20, 2018 13:04:24 GMT -5
"I have to say that I like the comments section okay, but if we got rid of the comments, all of it would be clear to the tapa people and we might get more replies on the regular posts!! Even after the week is over!"
Moosi, I kind of agree with you. After a while, I stop going all the way back to check for new comments on the comments and I am sure that I am missing some wonderful insights. Hmmmm. I am kind of a fool for putting this in the comment section, aren't I? I go now to put it in a post. And here it is in all its splendor!
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allie
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Post by allie on Dec 20, 2018 13:36:27 GMT -5
I think with the rhyme and the soldiers they could have made more use of it if they’d paid more attention, at least have set up a watch on the figures - or chucked them all into the sea. It seems a bit odd to just leave them all sitting there and ‘allow’ the killer to remove them as people were picked off. I don’t think they could have planned for being mauled by a bear etc (though Rogers possibly should have thought chopping sticks wasn’t the greatest idea) but once they realised that the rhyme meant they would be picked off one by one they could have taken more precautions and not kept going off doing things alone, they really did play into the judges’ hands for the most part and he got lucky that they did. Yes, this is more along the lines of what I meant by preplanning in my earlier comment.
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Post by itsrad on Dec 20, 2018 13:37:49 GMT -5
I think the initial description of the isolation of the island set the atmosphere. Even if I hadn't known what was going to happen, I would have known. You could practically hear the foreboding music in the background.
The question about the poems and dolls made me realize what has been nagging at me since I read the book. It seems to me after the first two murders the other eight would have taken the poem and try to analyze what was going to happen. Somebody could have "staked out" the dining room to see who was pocketing the dolls. Why was anyone alone after the first two murders - at this point every group should have had a minimum of 3 people?
For the Judge's plan to work, everything had to go perfectly. Perhaps this is why I didn't care about the characters - because they weren't acting like fully formed people, more like "soldiers" to be moved around the chess board.
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Mashy
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Post by Mashy on Dec 20, 2018 13:59:02 GMT -5
You know what I find really cool about book club? I’ll remember so many more details and perhaps walk away with a different attitude toward the book after all the discussion. I’ve never been in an IRL book club, as you might have guessed.
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Post by gemster on Dec 20, 2018 13:59:05 GMT -5
I was going to put this in a comment but decided against it I don’t watch horror films anymore but back in the day when I used to, this thing of victims playing into the killers hands (going off alone, not taking any precautions even though there was a crazed killer on the loose etc) seemed to be a big thing in them as well, not sure if it still is.
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Post by moosishun on Dec 20, 2018 14:10:28 GMT -5
What I am amazed about is that it retains an inordinate amount of "freshness" even though it was written over 75 years ago. What causes accidental/purposeful deaths is still "on time". None of those scenarios of the 10 were out in left field (except for perhaps Emily - I do take some umbrage to that), although she was extremely insufferable.
I guess Agatha thought that was sufficient reason for whackage.
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Post by gemster on Dec 21, 2018 3:51:51 GMT -5
Last day on Soldier Island
We’ve already discussed the ending/epilogue some and quite a few were disgruntled with it - was this because it was left to the judge to smugly explain it to us rather than the police or a sleuth working it out as they normally do in Agatha Christies? Or was it just that it was so impossible for us as readers to work out?
If it was going to be ‘solved’ by someone in the way that ACs usually are how do you think she’d have gone about that? Would it have been possible for one or more of the Soldiers to survive and explain or could she have brought in someone at the end to unravel it - maybe even Hercule Poirot or Miss Marple?? Do you think either of them (or any Lead Detective/Sleuth) would have fitted into this book without changing the entire dynamic?
Honeybzzzs already shared the quote from AC where she says: I wrote the book after a tremendous amount of planning, and I was pleased with what I had made of it. It was clear, straightforward, baffling, and yet had a perfectly reasonable explanation; in fact it had to have an epilogue in order to explain it. It was well received and reviewed, but the person who was really pleased with it was myself, for I knew better than any critic how difficult it had been.
In spite of this, do you think it’s possible that AC ended up unintentionally writing a mystery that was impossible for an outsider to solve so just had to (completely untypical for her) leave it to the murderer to explain how he did it?
Please share any other final thoughts and comments too - and thank you all for participating!
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Post by moosishun on Dec 21, 2018 7:18:49 GMT -5
I honestly thought the Judge was a pretty good suspect because he was SO RIGHT about everything. I know it seems so ridiculous that everything played out as it did, but life plays out stranger than fiction as well. The best thought the judge had was to scare Vera half to death with that seaweed, get everybody rushing to her room and then stage his own shooting! He also had help from the doctor and also from Vera, who shot that fellow on her very own. I find it highly amusing that the Judge marked her as far more dangerous than the one who was supposed to be very dangerous and had the gun no less! Of course, I appreciated the macabre playing to the poem as well. The only one that did not see "right" to me was Vera's suicide. I think he would have had to have been more hands on for that one because if Vera was that good at protecting herself, I think she would have been more resourceful in staying at that place on her very own.
The thought of me staying in a house with 9 other dead people does make my head itch, though.
I think Hercule would have had to have lined up all those dead people and pointed at them as he unraveled everything. It would have been QUITE messy in more ways than one.
I had to have Hercule explain the Orient Express to me because I surely could not have figured out all those characters on my own, so I think Agatha does this kind of thing a lot.
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Mashy
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Post by Mashy on Dec 21, 2018 7:23:47 GMT -5
I think for me I almost felt played. It didn’t seem fair to me to carefully read the book and be clueless and have to count on an epilogue to explain to me what I’d just read. I was honestly not happy with that. So much so that I tore through the epilogue, barely paying attention, and then had to go back later and read it again. It must have triggered my strong dislike of being managed or handled. I felt like AC was handling me. That sounds weird as I type it.
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Post by ccToast on Dec 21, 2018 7:48:03 GMT -5
I didn't mind having the mystery unraveled in the end because I don't think it would have worked to introduce another character to the story. The story works for me because the judge was able to complete his plan so that the island was discovered with everyone dead. As other posters have pointed out, the judge's revelation fits with his character of pride in his cleverness and ability to succeed in his plan.
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Post by gemster on Dec 21, 2018 8:34:14 GMT -5
I didn’t mind not being able to solve the mystery for myself - apart from a couple of the short Hercule Poirot stories where I made a guess and got it right, I’ve never been able to work any Agatha Christie’s out, you do just have to go with the flow - and I think that’s fairly typical of all authors and books in this genre. I was a bit annoyed that it’s just left to the judge to give his smug ‘aren’t I clever’ epilogue rather than have someone else solve it, but I think would have taken one of super sleuths to work it out though which is why I was thinking of HP or Miss M - but that would have meant dividing the book into two completely separate parts or making it a different book entirely. I do think Hercule could have solved it though given the chance - not sure how but he’s cracked equally tough cases so I have faith in him
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