Cyn
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OW 209.9 CW 139.9 WWGW 136
Posts: 31,031
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Post by Cyn on Jul 22, 2019 12:12:59 GMT -5
Hi, I agree with with every observation balancedlife made, except for her last one about Miss Marple v HP. This is the least favorite of the AC books we've read so far. Coming on the heels of Orient Express, I agree that the plot was just too convoluted, and sort of underdeveloped for me. It seemed to be the poor relation of the Orient Express plot. Speaking of poor relations, I laughed out loud at this sentence early on: "Old Miss Van Schuyler inclined her head in a satisfied fashion at this correct attitude on the part of poor relations." Old Agatha was certainly quite astute in many of her social class observations. I figured something was going on between Doyle and Jacqui-they both seemed way too OTT in their protestations immediately after the shooting incident. I know there are generally red herring characters, so I think that's why some of these seemed underdeveloped. They had their plot device use, but were unnecessary in the bigger picture. It seemed almost a little lazy on AC's part not to give a bit more info. To my mind there were not as many references to HPs little personal idiosyncraciez as in other books. It's interesting how in this book and Orient, HP allows for his own morality to dictate, or at least allow, the outcomes for the murderers.
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Post by gemster on Jul 22, 2019 16:14:53 GMT -5
Day 2 Popping this up early again When mentioning the characters in the book, so far nobody has showed any liking or sympathy for Simon or Jackie. Did you feel that way from the start and if so why, or did the dislike come from hindsight knowing what they’d done? Did you feel sorry for Jackie at any point earlier on in the book? What about Linnet, did you feel any sympathy towards her as the victim or do you think she sealed her fate stealing her best friend’s man? (And I’ve now got a Jolene ear worm after typing that....) For those that guessed They Dunnit, what made you suspect them, especially Simon who seemed to be doing a pretty good job of playing the devoted husband?
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Post by itsrad on Jul 22, 2019 18:16:41 GMT -5
I'm finally here playing catch-up. I had no clue whodunnit, but then I never do.
I don't really have an opinion about the characters - I didn't think they were as well-developed as in other books. It just seemed too convoluted - a poor imitation of Orient Express. That was convoluted but tied together at the end. If I felt sympathy for any of the characters it would be Rosalie, but the pairing of her with Tim Allerton made me roll my eyes. The Cornelia and Dr. Bessner match made more sense to me. Those story lines were both a bit "Noah's Ark."
I didn't really feel sympathy for the Simon, Jackie or Linnet. Jacqueline was over the top and Simon seemed like an ass. I did have the thought that he might have done it for the money, but I couldn't figure out how that was possible. It never occurred to me they might be in it together.
I thought Linnet seemed like one of the more interesting characters - too bad she was the first victim because she would have made a great suspect.
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Post by roundtoit on Jul 22, 2019 19:59:46 GMT -5
I felt Simon was playing Linnet for her riches all along. I never had sympathy for him and felt it was a ruse all along to marry Linnet for her money Until the murder, I felt pity and dislike for Jackie because she wasn't stronger who just couldn't get over her man.
The character trait I liked best about Linnet was her business acumen and wasn't going to be bested in a deal. Until she was.
I think I was suspicious of Simon and Jackie most but couldn't figure out how it was managed. I suspected Pennington first because he wanted her to sign those papers without reading them.
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Post by ermabom on Jul 22, 2019 20:45:46 GMT -5
I thought Jackie was a bit over-the-top re: her devotion to Simon. And then he dumped her! I did feel sorry for her for a bit but after her discussion with HP early on in Egypt where he asks her to back off, I started to feel less sympathy for her. Simon always seemed a bit like a brainless idiot and I pegged him for a money-seeker, which he was. I really didn’t think he’d have much to do with the murder (except I remembered that he and Jackie were it though I didn’t remember how).
I had respect for Linnet but I didn’t like her.
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Post by ccToast on Jul 22, 2019 21:03:38 GMT -5
No, I didn't feel sorry for Jackie. Before I knew whodunit, I was so annoyed with Jackie for blaming Linnet for Simon breaking up with her. This attitude that the man is not at fault because he is stolen by the another woman, who in turn bears all of the blame, makes me CRAZY.
But of course Simon wasn't "stolen", he still loved Jackie.
Jackie's crazy laughing at the end made her more creepy than she was throughout the book.
ETA: Regarding Linnet, she was so young! She wasn't nice for taking up with a friend's finance, but she was so young that I could somewhat overlook that lack of judgment.
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Post by leftylou on Jul 22, 2019 21:11:44 GMT -5
I don’t think I ever felt sorry for Jackie. Before I was pretty sure she was still involved with Simon I just thought she swung from one extreme to another. I was a little surprised to find out Simon was the mastermind; I expected it was Jackie. I just saw Simon as a somewhat dense opportunist (I realize that doesn’t make sense, lol.).
I didn’t feel sorry for Linnet either. She was wealthy and always got what she wanted; even if she wanted her best friend’s man. I think people grew up faster in that time, and I found her pursuit of Simon pretty unforgivable.
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Cyn
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OW 209.9 CW 139.9 WWGW 136
Posts: 31,031
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Post by Cyn on Jul 22, 2019 22:49:17 GMT -5
I had more of a didn't really care reaction, rather than a very strong like or dislike towards these 3 characters.
The only time I really felt dislike towards Jackie was when she used poor Cornelia for her own devices in her 'drunken' scene just before the shooting incident.
Linnet fell into the category of the selfish, therefore somewhat unlikeable wealthy young woman that seems to appear in many of AC's stories.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2019 23:02:28 GMT -5
I’m sorry for being late to the discussion.
I did dislike Simon and Linnet from the start. Simon just seemed like a fool, although I thought he was Linnet’s fool up until he got shot. I disliked Linnet because she acted like she was the party that was wronged. It was hard to believe that she couldn’t realize why Jackie was so upset. It was like she had no shame and felt that Jackie should just get over it (we have a lot of those types of people in the world now).
I did start to suspect something when Linnet was shot. Simon seemed too protective of Jackie.
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Post by bernelli on Jul 22, 2019 23:26:39 GMT -5
I wanted to like Linnet... but her selfish comments, and self centered pious attitude disgusted me as early as the opening scene when she was talking with her friend, (forget her name) who wasn't on the trip.
I thought that Linnet's personality would make Jackie be the protagonist, but when Poirot saw Jackie & Simon in the restaurant and said he felt that the love Jackie had for Simon was no reciprocated I felt that something was up with her, and so I was suspicious. I did feel sorry for her when she was talking to HP under the tree.... but she was a crazy hateful stalker so I couldn't get on board with liking her too much.
I honestly believe Simon was a big doofus, and thought that it was going to be Jackie as the mastermind, so I was surprised when it was Simon.
My suspicions that Jackie & Simon were in cahoots happened when Simon asked to speak privately to Jackie after he'd been shot.
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Post by moosishun on Jul 23, 2019 6:05:40 GMT -5
Hi! Not reading a thing yet because of course I am late to this game! However, I am always so amused that even the nicest of people have a NEGATIVE tendency. Agatha certainly makes sure that everybody has a fault. Even poor Cornelia with her unfortunate dowdy self. Now honestly.
So, I am trying to finish this thing but this mutt is not being cooperative. Spoil it to heck and back - I will be here to read it when I am done. I am with the person who said they were about 100 pages in and nobody had gotten killed yet.
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Post by moosishun on Jul 23, 2019 7:37:20 GMT -5
Oh, yeah, and I thought I would like the Golden Girl but about 130 pages in and I just despise her, like that other young lady with the turban-headed mother (I'll get names straight in a minute).
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Post by moosishun on Jul 23, 2019 7:59:00 GMT -5
Colonel Race!!
The Thot Plickens!!
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lee058
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Post by lee058 on Jul 23, 2019 8:18:36 GMT -5
It's been so long since I first read DOTN that I can't remember how I felt about the characters then. I may have even thought that Jackie's obsession with Simon was enviable and a sign of true love. OTOH, I think that Simon's behavior towards both Linnet and Jackie was despicable. He basically dumped Jackie for money, and then was capable of killing Linnet, after acting the devoted husband, sleeping with her, protecting her from the boulder that almost fell on her, etc. I find it scary that anyone could behave like that. I can almost understand Jackie better, but the way she joined in with Simon because of loving him so much is just too weird.
In DOTN, I felt more of Poirot's humanity than in some of AC's other books; i.e., the way he reached out to Jackie. And speaking of Poirot, David Suchet will always be Poirot for me.
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Post by bumblebuzz21 on Jul 23, 2019 9:31:44 GMT -5
I liked Linnet. Jackie was crazy.
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Post by gemster on Jul 23, 2019 9:45:33 GMT -5
I can't think back far enough to how I felt when I first read the book as it was a looooooong time ago!
Reading it this time around I think I was very influenced by the TV adaptation with David Suchet as HP as I've watched that a few times fairly recently.
On this read wouldn't say I liked Simon as such to begin with but thought he was a sort of a harmless bumbling fool who was just a bit daft and easily led, I definitely hated him by the end though - more so than Jackie. I did feel very sorry for Jackie at the start (where HP was talking to her at the hotel) but that went away fairly quickly and I just thought she was pathetic.
I actually did quite like Linnet, she was very astute for a 20 year old though obviously not that astute seeing as Simon pulled the wool quite easily... She was very self centered but I don't think I'd have been any better (probably very much worse) if I'd been a multi-millionaire at 20 and I would have likely signed anything put in front of me too!
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Post by moosishun on Jul 23, 2019 10:04:02 GMT -5
WELL. I see that the murder has been committed. I hope to heck sweet Cornelia is not a psycho-path.
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Post by bailey on Jul 23, 2019 10:34:01 GMT -5
I figured it had to be Simon and Jackie just because of their airtight alibis. But I didn’t have a clue how they actually did it. And I couldn’t figure out why Tim Allerton was so hostile to HP.
I felt like Linnet was fairly unlikable; who steals their best friend’s boyfriend?
The fact that there was a third/fourth (!) criminal on board was a bit too much. Unnecessary to the plot, imo. I may have skimmed that part.
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Post by balancedlife on Jul 23, 2019 11:14:38 GMT -5
I hated Linnet for treating her friend so shabbily, but I did respect her business acumen. Loved that she scared the bejabbers out of Pennington, that slimy no-goodnik.
Jackie kind wore down my last nerve with the hysterics and histrionics. But when she pulled off her plan at the end, well, that was interesting. In a way, she was kind of like Linnet in that they both did what they decided to do and planned to do to get the result they wanted. Both women were very self-focused and determined. Didn't turn out well for either of them, of course.
Sooooo, there were two darling wee handguns, eh? When that fact was mentioned in HP's wrap-up, I didn't get it. And, by then, I wasn't willing to work too hard at understanding his line of reasoning -- LOL. If someone can give me the Cliff's Notes on that, I would appreciate it very much! Hmmmm. Are Cliff's Notes still around?
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Post by lindarx on Jul 23, 2019 11:34:13 GMT -5
I did not like Simon at all. Or Linnet.
Jackie was Ok at first; but, just seemed so desperate that I became irritated with her fairly quickly.
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Post by gemster on Jul 23, 2019 13:13:05 GMT -5
balancedlife, re pistols Race shouted: ‘Where the devil did she get that pistol?’ Poirot felt a hand on his arm. Mrs Allerton said softly, ‘You–knew?’ He nodded. ‘She had a pair of these pistols. I realized that when I heard that one had been found in Rosalie Otterbourne’s handbag the day of the search. Jacqueline sat at the same table as they did. When she realized that there was going to be a search, she slipped it into the other girl’s handbag. Later she went to Rosalie’s cabin and got it back, after having distracted her attention with a comparison of lipsticks. As both she and her cabin had been searched yesterday, it wasn’t thought necessary to do it again’
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Post by becca on Jul 23, 2019 14:47:23 GMT -5
Don't mind my drive-by, I just thought of y'all when I saw this:
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Post by gemster on Jul 23, 2019 15:56:38 GMT -5
Day 3 The quote I did for BL about the gun reminded me that HP makes some major judgements and decisions in this book without consulting anyone - knowing Jackie had the pistol and what she was likely to do, letting Tim off with the thefts. Why do you think he makes those decisions and do you think he was right? lee058 said above that HP shows more humanity in this book than in others, for those who read/discussed Orient Express or have read any other ACs featuring him would you agree with that? Did you warm to him in this book or just find him irritating and pompous? And do you agree with his very modest self assessment that he’s a genius/greatest detective in the world who can solve crimes that nobody else possibly could?
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allie
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Post by allie on Jul 23, 2019 17:55:56 GMT -5
I didn’t really like Jackie from the beginning when she came to see Linnet only to ask her about giving Simon a job and then running off. However, I also don’t think Linnet should have “stolen” Simon either because that’s not how you should treat your best friend.
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Post by ccToast on Jul 23, 2019 20:01:46 GMT -5
I can't say that I am warming to Poirot, but I did like that he made a joke about his own mustache. I think that the classism gets in the way too much for me to like him (or many other characters). I do find it peculiar that he will let people get away with their crimes. In this case with the pearl necklace, even if it's returned and there's no harm/no foul, what about the other robberies that Tim and Joanna have committed together? In Orient Express I didn't mind that Poirot did not turn the guilty over to the authorities because I felt that justice had been served.
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