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Post by ermabom on Jul 23, 2019 20:51:35 GMT -5
HP is egotistical but he's always seemed to have an inner laugh at himself. I think he seems more prone to it in this book but I haven't read a lot of HP recently. I did a read through of Miss Marple's books over the winter and may do that with HP next winter.
He has always had his own opinions about justice and I don't always agree with them. In this case, he decided to live and let live with the robberies and also didn't think to disclose that Jackie might use her other pistol. I'm not sure what I think about that. He wasn't in any official capacity (unlike some other books) and I think he had a soft spot for her. Maybe he thought this was the best way out for her. He seems to have admired her also.
His ego is one of the things I don't like about him as a character although I admire his little grey cells and am amused by his idiosyncrasies.
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Post by leftylou on Jul 23, 2019 20:58:22 GMT -5
This is my first HP book so I can’t speak to that part of the question, but I felt like he allowed things to happen in a way that allowed closure. I’m not sure I’m clear on who HP is. I thought he was a police detective, but is he more of a PI? That would make more sense of his straying from the path of strict procedure.
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Post by moosishun on Jul 23, 2019 21:02:52 GMT -5
I'll tell you this right now -
I don't want to be anywhere around Hercule Poirot.
He attracts dead people.
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Post by bernelli on Jul 23, 2019 23:34:51 GMT -5
Big Sigh. I think most mysteries are written so that the reader can't possibly figure them out. I think Poirot has insight that we can't have.... but it's not his fault it's Agatha's!
I loved that he felt warmth toward Jackie, and I loved getting to see a bit farther into his persona. I do think he's a conceited ninny, but he thinks he's conceited and he's fond of himself for that.... I just kinda liked that about him in this book. I don't know that I'd like him in real life, but he is great in these stories.
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Post by moosishun on Jul 24, 2019 5:19:44 GMT -5
WELL!! I NEVER!
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lee058
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Post by lee058 on Jul 24, 2019 6:38:55 GMT -5
Maybe he is conceited, but he has a lot to be conceited about!
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Post by honeybzzzs on Jul 24, 2019 7:11:17 GMT -5
I loved that he would wear a pink shirt with a black bow tie. That visual just made me Smile!
And I liked that I got to know him a bit better in this book. I like his saucy self.
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Post by moosishun on Jul 24, 2019 7:18:02 GMT -5
So, I finished this thing and even though I like that HP allowed Jackie to end it all with her and Simon, I was not quite so comfortable about that light-fingered pearl thief, even though I liked his mother all right (I honestly thought she was going to be the culprit). I didn't get that it was Simon and Jackie until the end. You could have blown me over with a feather when it turned out that Simon was the one obsessed with killing Linnet because he was such a stupid shit. Good looks and the brain of a slug. What a sad trait. The fact that a smart gal like Jackie and a rich smart gal like Linnet would go all apey on him just made me want to shake them.
A man without sense is NOT A CATCH, even if he is hung like an elephant.
So I guess Joanna is eventually going to get caught but then she will implicate that happily married ass and Rosalie will be comforted by the mother she should have had. It would have been better if HP had turned him in because then he could have had his sentence reduced by confessing to all that jewelry stuff and turning state's evidence against Joanna and others.
I thought HP had a sweet soul and the fact that he took such pains with Jackie was such a beautiful little set of scenes. Somebody else said she and Linnet were very similar and I think that they were. I think her plot line was terrific and probably not that hard to conjure up since Linnet had been such a shit to try to steal her boyfriend. For a smart business-woman, she sure was a dolt about Simon.
I don't know if I could have kept up the charade if I had been Jackie once Pennington tried to off Linnet. I think I would have had eyes as large as saucers for a full week and wondered so much about who else was planning the dirty deed that I would have been completely off my game.
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Post by moosishun on Jul 24, 2019 7:23:32 GMT -5
My absolute favorite person in the book was Cornelia. I love that Mr. Ferguson saw her for who she was and fell madly in love with her. I am rather disappointed that she did not end up with him but he might have been a real stink. I was highly amused that he was a rich guy in drag. He could wear all that dirty crap on the outside but had to have his quality panties and hankies.
I liked him and the young man from the British firm.
I was really hoping that Mr. Pennington was the killer, but he gave it a shot!
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Post by balancedlife on Jul 24, 2019 10:55:11 GMT -5
(Why do you think he makes those decisions and do you think he was right? Do you agree with his very modest self assessment that he’s a genius/greatest detective in the world who can solve crimes that nobody else possibly could?)
I think that HP made those decisions because he thinks that he is all-knowing and feels justified in deciding what is the best possible outcome for everyone -- LOL. I didn't really mind, although I think that Timmy Boy had better stay far, far away from Joanna. Even though I think that he knows he would perish if caught and sent to jail (gaol?), he seems to need the rush of risk taking. Simon and Jackie? I guess a certain kind of justice was served. And we did get to have the heart-to-heart conversations between HP and Jackie which showed her calmly reflecting on her life and, you know, kind of taking responsibility. Plus, it must make a hell of a moment in the movie and stage versions!
Because of the political situation in the world right now, I am not happy with men who claim to be the greatest geniuses and to be the only people who can solve problems and fix what ails us.
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Post by leftylou on Jul 24, 2019 12:11:15 GMT -5
My absolute favorite person in the book was Cornelia. I love that Mr. Ferguson saw her for who she was and fell madly in love with her. I am rather disappointed that she did not end up with him but he might have been a real stink. I was highly amused that he was a rich guy in drag. He could wear all that dirty crap on the outside but had to have his quality panties and hankies. I liked him and the young man from the British firm. I was really hoping that Mr. Pennington was the killer, but he gave it a shot! I agree about Cornelia! I assumed she’d pick the rich guy in disguise, but was pleasantly surprised when she blew him off for the doctor. She had spunk.
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Post by itsrad on Jul 24, 2019 12:19:47 GMT -5
I think he makes the decisions because he believes that his genius makes him capable of making moral judgements and decisions. It held together for me in Orient Express because that was one crime that seemed to serve justice and the characters were sympathetic at the end.
This seemed to be the opposite of that. This time the crimes (and multiple murders) were greed, more greed, and an extra helping of greed. The whole lot of them belonged in jail.
I don't know that I believe he shows more humanity in this book - more like hubris. I did find him irritating, and I thought AC did entirely too many "pulled out of a hat" reveals at the end.
I was excited for the movie because I loved Orient Express (I've seen three versions), but now not so much. I will be interested to see how Branaugh portrays him this time, and how much plot tinkering he does.
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Cyn
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Post by Cyn on Jul 24, 2019 13:36:19 GMT -5
I mentioned his cavalier approach to justice in my first post, on the first day.
It's definitely interesting to do the obvious compare to Orient Express. I wonder if this propensity for HP to make allowances is what made AC team him up with Colonel Hastings so frequently, to keep him more on the legal straight and narrow. It does annoy me greatly that he was manipulated into letting a lot of people off for the wrong reason.
It's difficult to imagine HP without his ego, though he is sometimes able to laugh at himself and his foibles.
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Post by roundtoit on Jul 24, 2019 13:42:30 GMT -5
I liked HP and didn’t mind do much that some got away with crimes. I haven’t read any other HP books so have no more to add to this discussion today
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Post by gemster on Jul 24, 2019 14:15:06 GMT -5
I absolutely love HP but I’ve read all books and short stories & watched the TV shows with David Suchet a gazillion times so feel like I know him. Yes he is pompous and conceited but he knows he is and is quite happy to take the piss out of himself, I also think he’s a very good at heart person who is genuinely kind and cares for others - like Jackie and Rosalie in this book but I also really like his friendship with Hastings in other books. And I do think he’s a genius when it comes to solving crimes so his conceit is justified IMO. He was head of the Belgian police before coming to England in WW1, so even though he’s a private detective now he still carries a lot of official weight and is often employed by the government as well as aristocracy and royalty so has friends in high places.
I think in this book he let his heart rule his head due to his feelings for Jackie, Rosalie and Mrs Allerton. Jackie, Simon and Tim Allerton should all have gone to jail, though Britain still had the death penalty back then and it’s likely Jackie and Simon would have been hung. I’m trying to think if HP expresses any feelings about the death penalty in any books and can’t recall but I’ve always got the feeling he’s against it which is maybe why he’s willing to let certain criminals take their own way out.
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Cyn
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Post by Cyn on Jul 24, 2019 14:51:58 GMT -5
I had completely pictured Linnet as a pale blonde, and Jackie (Jacqui?) as a rather sultry brunette.
I looked up the Ustinov as HP movie cast, and in that production they had Mia Farrow as Jackie and Lois Chiles as Linnet, so opposite how I pictured them. I'm just realizing that they were both in that Robert Redford version of Great Gatsby, where Mia was Daisy and Lous played Jorden Baker, the somewhat lower level socialite who cheated at golf. I'll have to look up which film/casting combo came first. I see Branaugh has cast Gal Godot as Linnet. Interesting choice.
ETA Great Gatsby was 1974, Death on the Nile was 1978.
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Post by gemster on Jul 24, 2019 15:11:47 GMT -5
Cyn I don’t recall the 1974 film too well though I have seen it, but you’re bang on with how those two were portrayed in the Poirot TV show. I know I keep harping on about it and no idea how hard or easy it is to find in the US but the DOTN adaptation is really, really good, it’s rare for me to say this but I prefer it to the book. I couldn’t find much about the KB film other than it’s release had been postponed. I didn’t hate KB and his mahoosive moustache as much as I thought I would in Orient and but he’s not really HP to me. I’m watching the man himself right now played by David Suchet as Death in the Clouds is on tv. I have no idea if this will ever be released in the US but BBC did an adaptation of the ABC murders over Christmas here with John Malkovich as HP. Absolute sacrilege, AC must have been turning in her grave. It was also incredibly grim and depressing, I wish I’d never seen it.
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Post by gemster on Jul 24, 2019 16:40:54 GMT -5
Day 4Quite a few people have already talked about this as part of the earlier discussions but thought it was worth delving a bit deeper What did you think of the romantic relationships and coupling up in this book? First of all our not so lovely Simon - why do you think two strong minded women like Jackie and Linnet both fell so hard for him and ended up being manipulated by him? And what about the other pairings off, why do you think AC wrote them into the book seeing as they weren’t integral to the plot and seemed to be a bit of a hasty add on at the end. Why do you think Rosalie and Cornelia made the choices they did and have they chosen wisely or not?
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Post by lee058 on Jul 24, 2019 16:45:40 GMT -5
Cyn, Gal Gadot as Linnet??? OMG. I can't picture it.
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Post by ccToast on Jul 24, 2019 17:10:17 GMT -5
I was happy to see Cornelia make a choice and get out of her current situation. I don't know that I see her having the independence and self confidence that I would like her to have, but I can imagine that Dr. Besser will appreciate her as an individual, even if I have a hard time buying this as a romance. I agree with Cyn that she may become an overworked helpmate. Although I can't understand how smart women like Linnet and Jackie would fall for a terrible person like Simon, it's certainly a phenomenon that I see over and over again in real life. moosishun summed up my feelings about this situation!
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Post by itsrad on Jul 24, 2019 17:51:36 GMT -5
I think the pairing up of Rosalie and Allerton, and Cornelia and Dr. Besser was AC's way of nodding to the times. Single women didn't have many choices back then - they could be nurses or companions or governesses. She was doing them a favor by finding them husbands. I thought she built the Cornelia/Besser pairing nicely and it made sense to me, the Rosalia one seemed out of nowhere. Of course, Rosalia may have been motivated by getting a new mother.
The Linnet - Jackie - Simon thing was hard to fathom. I thought Linnet and Jackie's characters were pretty well drawn by AC, Simon was muddier to me. So it was hard to understand what both women saw there. Maybe a bit of the "bad boy" thing?
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Post by Cyn on Jul 24, 2019 20:20:19 GMT -5
Yes, I agree about the times of the book. They were definitely not living in our 'a woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle' era. TBH, I'm not sure which is worse? Being a poor relation, but at least you get some free time potentially, in cool places. Or being stuck dealing with an overbearing parent? Or possibly still being a doormat, but for a man, in different ways. There's always DuMaurier's 'Rebecca' to consider...
ETA I thought the whole Ferguson situation to be absolutely ridiculously unbelievable. Even when it was revealed that he was a peer. I also think that poor Mrs Tim'sMom is going to be completely stuck with Rosalie's nutjob, narcissistic, drunkypance Mom after Tim and Rosalie basically blow them both off minutes after the wedding.
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Post by bernelli on Jul 24, 2019 22:57:00 GMT -5
I think it was "typical" of Linnet's personality to steal her friend's BF/fiance, and I guess Jackie recognized that about her. ...Honestly, I felt that there was a strong pairing between Linnet & Jackie in order to build up the red-herring/motivation for murder. But I didn't feel like I got to know Simon any more than he's a big strong tall man.... he also seemed a bit dumb when he was with Linnet, but that ended up being his plan.
Perhaps AC used the two-friends-fall-for-the-same-guy as a mechanism to move her story, and nothing more. I felt Simon was too shallow of a character to understand what the draw was.
I got a warm fuzzy when Cornelia paired up with the Dr. at the end. It didn't seem like a very romantic pairing, but Cornelia made a choice that could help her in a career... and I was left hoping it would work out between them and they'd fall in love....
....it's exactly this (old fashioned) (romantic) attitude that AC may have been writing to. To tie things up and make the lonely characters happy?
...this was a difficult question for me to answer. I never even thought more deeply about the characters in this way... interesting question (for me at least).
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Post by gemster on Jul 25, 2019 8:00:08 GMT -5
I didn't really get a sense of Simon at all but he must have had something going on/still waters run deep etc. I can why Jackie ended up with him as she was in 'reduced circumstances' so probably didn't have the pick of the marriage market, not so sure about Linnet. Have an affair with him yes but I thought she would be more careful with who she tied herself to legally and financially. Though she might have seen him as an escape route from those other blokes (think there was a boring Marquis or some such) that were after her. I still don't really get why they fell so hard and Jackie was so much under his spell but I don't think he was well written at all, there was no real insight to him and everything we do know is through Jackie. I don't know why AC was so keen on the other pairings as they didn't add anything to the story or plot but she does often seem to throw a random pairing up/marriage into her books, this is the only one I can recall with two of them though. But yes I guess it could well be because being married was the only option for a lot of women and they often did marry men they barely knew. I liked Tim though he's very weak and easily led, I would not want to be married to him! But maybe Rosalie and Mrs Allerton can keep him on the straight and narrow between them. I didn't like Doctor Bessner and I'd have gone for the aristo in disguise if I had to choose, though neither of them would be my idea of life partner. I think Dr B is too bossy and controlling whereas the aristo chap was all brag and bluster but could be controlled quite easily himself by anyone willing to be bit feisty back to him (which Cornelia was). I do agree with itsrad, that even though I love AC it is often hard to get a sense of the characters, I think it's because most of the books are short and have so many characters it's not really possible to flesh them all out or give them a backstory.
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Post by lindarx on Jul 25, 2019 8:37:55 GMT -5
Interestingly, in the DOTN movie I watched, Tim Allerton does not end up with Rosalie. He tells her that she is “barking up the wrong tree” as he goes to his mother. It implies that he is either gay or in a relationship with his mom. Actually, I found that a more believable scenario than he and Rosalie suddenly falling in love.
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